Meh. Who even cares about installs. People reeeaally seem to forget about the 486 days, with 2 hour installs.
Plus, obviously quality can be maintained with installs, hard drives being faster than optical drives, especially in blu-ray's case.

Oh and if anyone from Australia cares, EB Games is offering a $20 off upon preorder. Well, at least at my one (Knox City Melbourne), but EB's deals are pretty much universal. So look into it if you're planning on getting it. $90 isn't too bad considering most new releases cost at least $109.95 at game retailers.

ViceOfFire

People are still whining about this?

henhowc

I don't care about this, really. If it makes the game run smoother then it's all for the better, imo.

phinehas

Hell, after waiting a whole year, what's 10 more minutes to you?

EvilFiek

Its not the wait time that bothers me, the 360 version had good load times, the graphics didn't suffer either. So why are 5gb of my hard drive space being taken up just so I can play a game that works fine on another, apparently inferior machine. I own a PS3 and enjoy playing it but why do so many games need a mandatory install, I thought the PS3 was supposed to be more advanced than the 360.

Sniper_Zegai

@Masx: Shame on you!

You let your logical reasoning cloud your whining.

AokiShinya

Personally I prefer a slightly slower Blu-Ray drive instead of a "loud as hell" DVD drive like the Xbox has. The mandatory installs are no problem at all, since Sony offers a decent backup functionality and the possibility to install ANY 2,5" SATA harddrive. That's a lot better than paying 100 bucks to M$ for a cheap 60 GB drive...

xXn00bXx

@anglon: Load times on the 360 are negligible and have less of an impact than sitting through 10 minutes of installation, then in some cases another 10 minutes of downloading and installing an automated patch upon boot.

Call me ADD-inflicted, but the long install on Devil May Cry 4 killed my excitement of playing the game that I did the install and called it a night without even getting to gameplay. Rare for that to happen on the 360.

I also think it's more of a matter of losing space on your PS3. 5GB is no joke!

ChiChi_BBQ

The reason I bought into the console lifesytle was tray 'n play. Nice to see Sony letting that monument get torn down.

hagridore

@theEnemy: Best comment ever.

-Really-. 10 minutes is NOTHING. It's practically getting-comfy-time.

Sanjo

Its not that hard to change the hardrive on your machine tho? Just replace your 20gb hdd with a bigger one and then thier are no issues

origamikid

I can see where installs are a pain but really just set it to install and go do something else. The only time I hated installs was from MGS 4 where you had to install everytime you switched chapters and reinstall when you reload an older save or want to replay a different chapter.

Masx

I have a launch 60GB PS3, and recently replaced the hard drive with a 250GB one, simple, and now I have plenty of extra room for installs, demos, etc. I'd prefer games didn't have installs, but, oh well.

The PS3 has been a "bumpy ride", but so was the PS2 (online adaptor took forever to come out, hard drive support) and PS1 (regular controller to DualShock analog), Sony doesn't seem to have everything laid out at launch, hopefully they can get things together by the time PS4 rolls around.

Ecks

Don't want to wait for 10mins ?

Buy the game 10mins earlier.

theEnemy

i would never part with my launch ps3.

harddrives are easly upgraded on the ps3 anyways, my former 60gb ps3 is now a 120gb for practically no cost thanks to my old laptop.

tsukasa1288

who has quicker load times in the end? ps3 or xbox?

so...if you wait 10 minutes ONCE...in the end...who ends up waiting longer?

ps3 owners or xbox owners?

anglon

The Ps3's bluray drive is a measly, cheap 2x speed only so, installing to the harddrive directly allows dev's to stream data from both the HD and the bluray for better efficiency.

The only trouble with this is that it kind of kills of one of the joys of having a console; namely no installs like a PC.

Lateralus63

@kadaj24: Yeah, if you had a 20GB hard drive and this game takes up 1/4 of it, that is pretty shitty.

sobjw

I don't know why people are so worried about install times.

longarms

@kadaj24: I guess he means 20gb PS3s which virtually no one has.

kadaj24

@sobjw: faster loading times. seems to be the only reason.

blehh

Why would it be "to the dismay of those owning launch model PS3s?" I would think it would more affect those owning the 40gb PS3.

kadaj24

Why? No install on the 360. Strange stuff going on here.

sobjw

@Lorrr: "Uncharted had no load times or an install and still makes 90% of the 360 library look last gen."

Actually, it had both, but did it in the background between "levels" (that bit where you slow down to a walk) and when cutscenes are running....which is probably why the cutscenes aren't rendered realtime, but are rather played as videos.

As I recall, the mandatory install is about 1GB on a rolling basis.

Oh, and because Uncharted was basically a corridor game where you were driven down a very specific path, it's much easier to organise assets on the physical media for when needed. Games like Bioshock are less linear and far more varied in the environmental assets, which probably explains the desire to go the install route.

Rotmm

@AokiShinya:

lol.

on topic though.
for anyone with a PS3 that hasnt played Bioshock... 10 mins is nothing really. Anything to get to play what to me was one of my best games of the year.
Just hope (when i get around to buying a PS3) that this doesnt become the norm. Having to install every game and fill up hardrives just smells of Living-room-PC to me... and i already have one :P

actionfitz

@theEnemy:

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
that was a great solution for complains!

GimmeCat

So why have games got mandatory installs(or data duplicated several times on the disc) if the PS3 drive is actually faster. The bottleneck has to be somewhere else then, right? Maybe in the RAM?

EvilFiek

@Rotmm: Same thing with the seek times actually. On average the blue ray drive is faster.

That1GuyNess

@That1GuyNess: I second that. Although the Blu-ray drive is only 2x, theres more data bandwidth so on average it's faster than a dual layer DVD on the 360 (speed depends on whether data is on inner or outer ring of 360 game). That said, I'd imagine the install time will cut down 360 loading times or else there are bigger textures to stream than the 360 version (better quality)? Don't really understand why else it would be mandatory.

It does suck though, I've got a 60gb HD on my PS3 and I'm constantly out of space and having to delete stuff, especially when each Qore episode comes out.

everybest

@That1GuyNess: As I said, it's about seek times and not read speed.

Rotmm

Screw it... I'll just go out and buy this.

[www.newegg.com]

Problem solved.

gomerkyle9

@henhowc: Norman Smiley avatar = win!

sobjw

@Rotmm: When using a dual layer disc like most 360 games do the blueray drive is actually faster on average.

That1GuyNess

5GB? Geez come on, What the hell do they need that takes up 5GB?

Soyerzz

I don't see while anyone should propagate this as a bad thing.

and it can't be because of the graphics, either. Uncharted had no load times or an install and still makes 90% of the 360 library look last gen.

Lorrr

I've heard the graphics are better so that's some compensation at least. I put a 250gb in my ps3 so it's a bit of "meh". Was 60 bucks on newegg on sale. I'm all for installs myself! Better load times. Ps3 is turning consoles into pc's which is a great thing. You guys are really missing out on all the customization mods better graphics because of the hard drive and just all sorts of stuff.

That1GuyNess

@blehh: I think yes, loading times are part of it. However, the more important part is texture streaming to try and reduce the amount of texture pop-in that occurs in modern games.

The problem with the BluRay drive is not drive speed per se, but rather seek times. Games like Resistance required copies of the same game assets to be replicated many times over the BluRay media to ensure that they loaded quickly, no matter where the head currently was on the disc. This, though, is very time consuming for the developer when putting the master together, and also is very wasteful.

Mandatory installs mean that those assets can be dumped onto the HD, which obviously doesn't suffer from the same limitations of the BluRay drive. This means that you get faster loading times for levels (to roughly the same speed as the 360, or very slightly faster in some cases) and also little to no pop-in.

Rotmm

10 minutes won't dissuade me from playing a kick-ass game.

YHWHMystic

In the end it's the same. You guys should really try to relax.

Garo

@Oomingmak: Thanks. :)

Brian Ashcraft

So...it's just ten minutes? Go get a snack or something.

mackincheese

10 min install is fine and everything but 5 gigs really?

Blazinfire0

@xXn00bXx: wahhh i have a unnecessary load time so ill take it out on another system.

Ra is on Seinfeld

@Brian Ashcraft "Like 'me or not, mandatory installs seem like they're here to stay"

I might as well like you then.

Oomingmak

I never seem to see shock headlines about the install times of PC games?

JudgeNutmeg

Installs are very annoying for a console. It might now affect anyone much right now but in the future when your owning 50 games and each has a 5gb install your using up 250gb just to be able to play your games instantly. When your full you have to uninstall and install not to mention the space could be used for video files, pictures, and dlc. I don't mind installs right now but PLEASE give us the option atleast. Don't make it mandatory. Those who want the faster load time can do the install. Those who don't want the faster load times doesn't have to install it. Don't force it on the consumers. If it was up to me, I would choose to skip the install but I'm sure there are those who would rather do the install and thats time. I hate it when companies take away the consumers ability to choose. I say it once again make it optional!!!!!!

lancaster1

Boo hoo, 10 minute install. Just leave it to run, and go read the manual while having a shit. Simple. It's no big deal, really.

@theEnemy: I love your work.

Ungruntled

Kind of annoying because Uncharted proves you can have an amazing game with quick load times without a manditory install. Oh well, this has kinda persuaded me to get a bigger HDD for my PS3 anyway. At least us PS3 owners have the option to do that ;)

manicfoot

@gomerkyle9: Go ahead and buy a 3.5" drive and try to wedge it into the 2.5" space provided. Have fun with that. May want to go with this -----------------------------------------------------------------> [www.newegg.com]

Sarlac

It's simple, the reason why xbox360 DO NOT have installs is because not every xbox sold has a harddrive. That is a loss that MS did when introduced Arcade version.

and how is "automatic" install/upgrade of games comparable to "manual" installations on PC's? ... and you can always just flip the channel on your TV during the install, and relax in your couch.

dannyCage

@Lorrr: Uncharted makes 90% of the PS3 library look last gen.

Bii-Nii-Wii-Nii

I have a 320GB in my PS3 so this is the least of my worries. Bring on Bioshock :)

BabeBro

@henhowc: People are still being apologists about this?

Muckley

I always prefer faster loading times. I can go make a sandwich or something during the ten minutes. However, during the game, you have to sit there and watch loading times.

colonelschvatz

I recant my last idiotic pick for a hard drive and choose...

[www.newegg.com]

gomerkyle9

@Sarlac: Hmm... I was wondering if anyone would notice. It's a good thing I don't buy stuff as quick as I put stuff on forums...

gomerkyle9

@Sniper_Zegai: Wow, someone with the same concern as me!

I've always wondered why NO ONE seems to want to discuss that.

Why does Bioshock on the PS3 require an install? It ran great on the 360. The loading wasn't instant, but it was negligible. And there's no texture pop-in, either. So what is the reason?

MouseCircus

5GB mandatory install....guess I wont be buying this. I have a 20GB PS3 and its already filled with install files, mostly mandatory. Do I want to not be able to play another game without deleting an install file every time I want to change....(And no, I wont be upgrading as thats too much time and effort for me. I buy consoles to be played as is, not for upgrades.)

RuneX21

I don't have problems with installs, but making it mandatory is a little aggravating.

alecpyron

Even though I have Bioshock on 360 (and was'nt really intending to get it for PS3 too), I just dont like the sound of "mandatory installs" some developers are inforcing in PS3-games. Makes the consoles more and more like PC, and I dont like where this is going.

nemro

When upgrading a Hard Drive, is it possible to just copy everything from old HD to the new one? Or would I have to reinstall everything and redownload all my games?

everybest

@Funnydale: It's a case of to each their own here I think. For 3rd party titles I've been buying the PS3 versions mostly and it's partly because they offer an install and the ability to make use of the hard drive.

I don't think either console gets it 100% right. I think the PS3 installs should be optional and the 360 isn't offering installs for some games that could benefit from it. I've got room to burn on my 360's 120GB hard drive, but I'm still having to put up with slow loading times and the noisy DVD drive.

MattB

@The_Inquisitor: The PS3 has built in backup and restore and supports external USB hard drives. If you have access to such a drive it's pretty easy to copy the old drive to the new one.

MattB

@sobjw: You're the first one to know who my avatar is. I don't know if that is a good or bad thing...haha

@Muckley: I don't particularly care if installs are mandatory or not. Nice try at being snarky though.

henhowc

As someone who owns both systems; this install crap is the reason why I've only bothered to buy a grand total of two disc-based games for my PS3 this year -- (Hot Shots Golf (which oddly enough, makes you install the entire game) and MGS4.

Sorry, but I don't want to spend another 60-70 bucks to buy and install another hardrive just to play a fucking game, which is why I always get the 360 version of any 3rd-party game over the PS3 one.

For me, the PS3 is looking like this generations version of the Nintendo 64: a system that I'll only buy 2-3 exclusive games a year for (Little Big Planet is the only PS3 game I plan on buying this year).

Funnydale

@everybest: It is possible, but you will need some equipment to do it.

You'll want to have a USB HDD adapter, something like this:
[www.newegg.com]
I have that model, it works pretty well, though I have heard of problems using it with Vista.

You'll need a copy of something to create a drive image - I use an old copy of Drive Image, but that got bought out by Partition Magic and then by Norton. I've heard good things about Acronis True Image, and Norton Ghost works.

Then you simply pull your PS3 drive out, hook it to your PC with the USB adapter.

Use your imaging software to make an image of the current drive.

Disconnect the old drive, and connect your new drive to the USB adapter.

Restore the image you made onto the new drive.

Install the new drive into your PS3.

Provided everything was successful, you will notice no difference when you restart your PS3. I swapped out my 20GB drive for a 160GB drive doing this, my downloaded content continued working, and my saves and installs all work.

You will need to have enough hard drive space on your PC to store a complete copy of the PS3 drive. The imaging utility may compress things a bit, but expect at least 16GB of free space will be needed.

The_Inquisitor

@gomerkyle9: Good choice. I was looking at the similar black edition though as it`s 7200rpm with 16mb cache and a little faster but then thought that i probably would never need that much storage.Maybe in future i`ll get one.
[www.komplett.ie]

UFO

Are there any games that don't require an install, and aren't just PSN games on disk? Don't you have to install downloaded games for some reason? It took my friend half an hour to download a demo, then another 5 minutes to install it. I thought the installs were for blu-ray games, since blu-ray isn't fast enough yet, and it's to reduce load times. But when the demo or game is already on the system's hdd....why?

Talleh

I'd rather games used the hard drive if it'll speed up loading times and/or improved streaming speeds for in-game content. I've got a 200GB 7200RPM drive in my PS3 so 5GB doesn't worry me whereas delays do.

That said, I'd prefer that the installs were optional so that those without the room to spare can still play the game albeit with a few loading delays here or there.

MattB

I don't get the problem with installs at all :s They just make your experience alot better in the long run. And if you have a 20gb PS3 and are filling it up, shell out the £15-20 for an 80GB+ HDD - This isn't a 360, HDD's are affordable and a normal price! :D

CukyDoh

@everybest: Yep, you can copy all the settings and stuff using the backup utility.
5Gb aint that much you either delete old stuff (demos or crap games say GT5:p) or invest in a bigger drive.

Ryuujin1024

It's not that big of a deal, provided you have the space. And for all of you out there suggesting complainers simply delete content (sometimes pretty rad stuff like Pixel Junk Eden) or go out and spend more money on a larger HDD, consider this: if HDDs are so cheap, why doesn't every PS3 come with at least 100 gigs?

These installs look to be the norm now for AAA titles; Sony certainly could have predicted this considering the Blu-Ray drives slow streaming speed. Why not just make 100 gigs+ the standard? It's all about choice? Oh, yeah. That's Msoft's lame excuse as to why the Arcade edition exists at all. Seems to me it's all about deception.

Regardless, if you haven't played BioShock yet, you owe it to yourself to sit through those 10 minutes. Or just play it on the PC or 360.

Anarchist_Gamer

I guess we'll see how much the HD installs actually help once you can do it on the 360.

I can't wait for the EXCITING side by side comparison videos and graphs of load times I'm sure some gaming sites will be posting. haha

henhowc

Make it a 10 gig, 30 minute install - I don't care. Just let me play BioShock, and I'll never have to be jealous of the 360 crowd again.

'Till Alan Wake... goddamnit.

Chances

I will never understand why people gripe about such a helpful feature.

bxlxsx

@MattB: come fall update you will have the option to fill that 120GB drive, too bad devs STILL won't taylor games for a system with an HDD.

SAKY

@Talleh:
In the case of a downloaded game, think of the install as 'unpacking' the compressed download file. A bit like when you download an installer for windows - and then have to install it.

cubabit

the mandatory installs are the reason you don't have to load so much once you're ingame, so it might be 10 minutes now, but you don't have to load as much as a 360 would for the same game. Sure, we're now used to cd loadings, with the Xbox and ps2, so if you don't bother, go with an xbox. Anyways it's not like the ps3 is having hell of a party with it's 2 good exclusives lol.

Phibius

This just wouldn't work for me. On the 360 I've got around 14 games and it's not even half way through the consoles life. PS3 is meant to last 10 years so later on if I had one there'd be so many good games that require installs I'd need to be constantly uninstalling, reinstalling and data managing all the time with the installations alone. I'd probably get some free DLC, themes and demoes too. So I either have to pay more for a hard drive or mess around installing it alot. It's not an ultra tragedy but it does put me off a bit cos for the price of a PS3 and a new hard drive I could just get tons of games or a Wii.

It's too bad that blue ray as new technology is making these mandatory installs necessary but it's still better in the long run. They needed the space on the discs, which makes it also cheaper for game developers and they can just do the installs on most games to make them even better read speed than 360 titles.

Llost

@manicfoot: Uncharted has the MAD pop in though.

ThursdayNext

@MasterSauce: QFT. I can't believe people think that actually having to have the disk in while you play is a good thing. I HATE games that make you keep the disk in. It's noisy, slow, and stinks of old technology.

PATSCRU

@colonelschvatz: NO TOUCH SANDVICH!!!

ThursdayNext

@sobjw: It's a matter of disc read speed. The DVD ROM drive in the 360 reads up to 12 or 16 (I can't remember which) speed, and so it can grab a lot of things off the disc at once. Since Blu Ray is a new technology, it only reads at 1x speed, and as such it can't multitask information...so it needs to take it from the hard drive.

And as for us with launch-breed PS3's, I have a 60 and I'm doing fine...worry about those 40 giggers.

TheHeartless

And all the Pc gamers Say: nothing new to see here.

MasterSauce

@djlowballer: You can't see the contents as the PC can't read the PS3 filesystem. You can clone the hard drives directly as a whole, but can't copy any individual files around.

MattB

I would like to see it go the way the original xbox handled this. There were two partitions on the hard disk which the game could overwrite one, caching whatever it wanted to the hard disk. This obviously resulted in slightly longer loading screens when the game is first loaded up (or if you played a few other games since). But otherwise it was a much more elegant solution to the one that Sony have implemented on the PS3. TBH I'm surprised that Microsoft didn't implement this system on their 360 as well. As long as games aren't dependent on it to work, it would allow faster loading time, quieter gaming and an added incentive for the people with the arcade system to buy the overpriced hard drive add-on, all win for Microsoft.

Knasher

Hrmm... if you replace the HDD in the PS3 can you just connect it to a computer and copy contents from original drive to the second?

djlowballer

@cio: It does ruin the game, if you have a 20GiB HDD and have to re-install the game everytime you've played 4 other games before it. So yes. 'Tis teh suck.

Protector one

@TRT-X: It is coming to the 360 but it's going to be optional. They announced that you'll be able to install games directly onto the hard drive to increase load times (and not need the disc I think) roughly the same time they announced FFXIII on 360.

Llost

@theEnemy: I love the logic.
Earlier game buys to WIN!

CartBlanche2

As if people are still arguing over this. It's ten minutes, if that ruins the game for you, you're retawded. Now the hard drive space argument I can understand, but seriously, wanking in other peoples' faces over ten minute installs is a futile exercise.

cio

@djlowballer: I think PS3 (and 360) have certain restrictions on what can and can't be copied from one HDD to the next.

I have a 20GB 360 (which actually is 13GB once you get past the pre-loaded system resources that are used), and one of the issues holding me back from upgrading now that I'm buying more DLC and Arcade games is all the DRM crap that's going on. (I know there's a relicenser...but I'm not sure how I'm supposed to get all my saves off the one HDD to the other)

That was a pisser BTW. Getting a 20GB HDD and finding out only 13 is usable.

TRT-X

There's only 4 gigs of space left on my ps3 though...

Okay, so maybe I don't need two seasons of Doctor Who on it...

GregoriusH

The reason this happens is because the PS3 can only use the GPU's 256mb of memory to store texture data, as opposed to the 360 which can use either bank of 256mb to store texture data. Obviously you don't want games on the PS3 to look inferior to 360 games, so they dump all the graphics data onto the PS3 harddrive to help with texture data swap speeds.

Sadly, the PS3 install for games isn't for your convenience, it's a work around for the PS3's poor handling of graphics memory. That being said, it doesn't really bother me to have to install before playing,. =P

Brendar

@TRT-X: It probably won't, because not all 360 units have hard drives... which opens up a completely different can of worms.

BtownDesignGuy

@everybest: I've got a 40gb model, and I have the same problem! It's like Sony expects us to treat our hard drives as though we had installed WiiWare!

Seriously, though. Almost every time I insert a new game disc, I have to wait for an install. Downloadable game demos also take surprisingly long to install. I've just gotten accustomed to nicknaming my unit the "WaitStation 3."

BtownDesignGuy

@longarms: Whatever has ever indicated that it's about the time needed?

It's the fact that you're buying a console game and still being forced to go through PC-like installations, which take up room on HDDs.

Bioshock was 5GB, DMC4 was like 5GB as well. I don't recall how big MGS4 was (but I think that was optional)

Mandatory installations on consoles is absolute BS. I bought a console so I wouldn't have to deal with this crap.

I pray this never finds its way to 360...

TRT-X

I think blu-ray might have slower seeking, because it reads at constant speed. This requires the rotation of the disc to be finely re-adjusted on every seek. BD has constant reading speed, because that allows for easier signal-detection and laser modulation at high bitrates.

somarix

@UFO: Also a good choice... The only thing I'm worried about is the 7200rpm. I read in a couple places that they recommend you stick with a 5400rpm. I don't know if that's true but before I buy a new one I'm going to find out for sure.

gomerkyle9

the 360 version has some SERIOUS issues with slow texture streaming, so i guess this is the workaround.

monkeybeach

This seems a bit excessive 5GB what the hell for?? I don't mind too much because i upgraded my PS3 hard drive to 300gb. But for those like my friends who haven't done this or unable to, 5GB is gunna take out a large portion of there hard drive. In my opinion its not the time that is the problem which most people seem to think it is, its the immense size of the install. If the amount of time is gunna be a problem then don't buy the game, simple, miss out. I'm more curious as to what its for there was nothing like this for the Xbox version.

mcgrathjo345

Ten minutes to install the game up front beats the hell out of waiting two minutes every time I leave a room. Waiting on a Blu-Ray drive while playing a game SUCKS.

James in Dupont

oh kotaku I love your digging into the 360 vs ps3 war, I own a 60 gig have about a dozen ps3 games yes the top ones included gta4 (install), ratchet and clank (install), heavenly sword, MGS4 and even some not so top games unreal tournement 3, ridge racer racer I selected to install it sould calibur 4 yes I chose to install it and I am still running with plenty available space. Overall I would say comments about not having enough space to fill should be a porn joke, not a topic on kotaku.

lilaliendog

@CapnHulk: I agree the installs are no trouble to get done since unlike PC titles you don't need to direct the install to certain areas etc. but if you have tons of games it would be annoying to have to constantly delete and reinstall games. Say I had some friends over, we don't really want to have to be deleting and reinstalling games as we go just to enjoy some games. Either that or having to pay for a bigger HD which is not so bad but when your buying the most expensive console you don't want to have to pay more aswell.

Llost

@digitalsleeper: Your assuming they buy the 120 gb hard drive then though, since the 360 has less need for huge hd's since there's no mandatory installs you could easily go with a 60gb which when accompanied with the 20gb would make the console have 80gb (which is enough for the 360) and be cheaper. Getting a good deal (online or something) on an elite would be cheaper than buying a regular 360 and then getting a 120gb hard drive too. Since they're also now putting in a 60gb hard drive as standard you could wait to get that too. But then you'd need a live subscription if you wanted to play online so fair do's.

Llost

As a PC gamer, installs are no big deal to me. At least you don't have to go through a ton of dialog boxes or anything.

Pop in the game, start installing, go make a sandwich. Now you're playing a fun game AND eating a delicious treat! WIN WIN.

CapnHulk

IT'S OVER TEN MINUTES!

Frank

@digitalsleeper: "PS3: $599 + 250gb hd $99
XBox 360: $499 + 120gb hd $199

Knowing you'll never have to worry about running out of space this generation except for porn, priceless."

PS3 with an 80gb hd: $399

Xbox 360 Elite with 120gb hd: $399

Gamers bad at math = Priceless.

Funnydale

If it works out the regular UE3 issues of slow texture streaming and things then I'm all for it for the idea of an overall better gaming experience.

If it doesn't, then that's just stupid.

XanderSan

PS3: $599 + 250gb hd $99
XBox 360: $499 + 120gb hd $199

Knowing you'll never have to worry about running out of space this generation except for porn, priceless.

digitalsleeper

First off I have both systems....

First thing I noticed was the wait time between the 2 systems but it's not really a big deal. But I don't like waiting for a demo to install after downloading it either

But I do have one question. What would happen if Sony put a game oooh say on a DVD.....?
I mean come on not every game out there is actually going to require a Blueray disk.

Virtual Fighter has a mandatory install and it's not really anything special. I'll chock it up to bad programmers, but there is no way it needs a BRD

later

Zatoichi666

@Llost: You'll need at least the first disk for a disk check but all other reads are from the hard drive.

okenny :) ...building bridges (to hide under)

I saw a comment talking about having game installs and still having plenty of space on a 60gb model (sorry, I don't feel like finding it to reply directly). I for one want to get the most out of my ps3 so I use all of its features. I keep lots of music on there and back up a lot of my recent pics, which double as something to have on the screen when I have a get together. It's cool to do the photo album slideshow while having a playlist for the party going on in the background until people are ready to play games. With my music, pics, vids, games, installs, and saves, I have a couple gigs left.

sex-target

Honestly, the $199 pricepoint is making me consider buying a 360 and saying "fuck it". Then I'd want wireless and HDMI hook up though. Maybe the elite would be a better deal.

sex-target

did anyone notice the home symbol on the front cover? does this mean home will be released in around same time are bioshock for ps3?

Nervallah

Dear Reader,

If you're just joining us allow me to bring you up to speed. PS3 rules! Xbox360 sucks!

Fanatical brand loyalty is funny.

Sandvich

people are still complaining over this? Get over it. Its a none issue.

GamingNinja

@lilaliendog: Then your looking at the short term and being naive. Simply look at the problem on the large, if it does continue to have installs and these installs get bigger or more frequent (which is the trend) then just 4 years into the life you might be having problems. Never mind the 10 years it's going to be up.

Llost

I don't think people get that it's not so much the 10 minute wait as it is the 5gb of space. It's not cool to force us to use space, especially if space is a premium for those who were early buyers and have a 20 or 60gb model. It should be optional so that we can enjoy our systems without having to worry about memory issues every time a new game comes out. I know, I know, we can pop in a bigger harddrive- but there shouldn't be a focus on that, it's called shifting the burden to the consumer.

sex-target

UM...so what. its ten minutes. go make a sandwich. as long as it has a nice loading screen. also, this version is bigger than the 360 version. there is more on the disk.

INDIGOVENOM

i just like the fact that the Home symbol is on the box

Ten minutes after a year of waiting is a no brainer...

@CapnHulk: Seems like sandwiches are a local fav here at kotaku...lawl

ASchwarzenegger

ten minutes...come on. this game is great and that isnt that long to wait.

And to people bitchin bout low hard drive space.

READ YOUR MANUAL! It tells you how to install a bigger HDD. a monkey could do it.

[www.newegg.com]

thats what you need. Cheap and more memory you could deal with.

BigSt3ph3n

Its the power of the PS3!

zgreenwell

I'd never, personally, have any use for an Xbox 360 Arcade pack, but for all the railing against Microsoft for pushing a No-HD option, in the end, it keeps the developers honest.

An earlier commenter used the words "tray n' play." That's the cornerstone of consoles. The more I hear about these mandatory installs, the more I think Microsoft did the right thing.

They didn't fracture their userbase. They forced their developers to do their job right: the game must play off the disc! No installs! And (side note) no mandatory patching!

Comments about "go get a snack" and "ten minutes is nothing" are spurious. It's a console. Game goes in, game plays. No excuses are allowed. I take it to a friend's house: we put it in his machine, it plays. That's what consoles do.

The PS3 is one incredibly flawed machine. The comically bad design and terrible user experience makes the RRoD look like nothing.

gamegrump

@BigSt3ph3n:

The freaking POINT of a console is to be a gaming appliance. You shouldn't have to do any hardware modifications.

sqlrob

DAMMIT!
I'm on my last 10gigs Bioshock! Why do you do this to me. I'm actually seriously considering not buying this game until I get a bigger harddrive.
Dumb move if you ask me 2K.

Rinaldus

@sex-target: Arcade comes with HDMI, and no 360 comes with a wireless adapter.

Personally, I don't like installs. I understand their need, but if I want to play a game, I want to play the game right then. It's a small inconvenience at the end of the day to try to get a better overall experience, but I don't mind texture pop-ins or anything.

Smitty

I think if MS's optional full game install takes off with the fall update, Sony will follow suit and allow full OPTIONAL game installs. It's really a no-brainer, since it'd be way more useful on PS3, with the blu-ray drive's slow read spead being the bottle neck. Take that out of the picture and it'll be gold.

OtherAdam

If anyone is too impatient to wait out a 10 minute install, you shouldn't be playing games. And if it's a space issue, erase an install from a former game. Boo hoo. People make such a big deal out of nothing.

Sakilla

Wow, a whole 10 min install. How am I ever going to live? The world is coming to an end! Doom! Doom! Doom!

Seriously, I recently reloaded the PC version of Fable; 45 Mins! So I'll probably do the same thing I did while loading that game: watch TV, read, listen to music, etc. I mean, you can't go and do something else for 10 mins?

worsethannormal

Hey, I have to defrag my Vista PC every other day cause either my 7200RPM SATA2 HDD is so shitty, or for other reasons (maybe...Vista). In any case, I have to put up with shit WAY worse than 10 minute installs these days. Power to the PS3 for keeping the longer tasks known from the PC away from me. I'll accept mandatory installs with open arms for that.

Candlejack

I rather have a 10 min install one time, than having to wait 10 min in a loading screen, like in the 360 version of Bully...I´ll buy this game anyway, mandatory installs doesn´t scare me, i wont fill my hd anyway...

Daisuash

Gotta take the good with the bad. If the game's good, 10 minutes won't matter. You still have to install PC games and nobody complains about that, right? And with the fall update on 360 you'll have the option to install, so it's all good.

billnabors65

@digitalsleeper: Or, you could buy a 360 Arcade for 200, and a 120Gig HD for 160 bucks, totalling to the coincidental number $360.
Both the arcade and the HD have dropped in price.

SpiralJacobs

@gamegrump: Comparing a 10 minute install to a multi million dollar mistake is completely illogical, it doesn't even really make sense.

Both these consoles have their advantages and disadvantages seen differently by different people. For some the HDD-less 360 is completely a waste of money, and a problem for some developers. And on the other hand having the mandatory install and the freedom of using this option makes for a worry free development team knowing everyone with a ps3 could potentially buy and play this game.

Don't compare apples to oranges here because it makes you sound wetalldid

ASchwarzenegger

@Funnydale: Don't forget to add the $100 it takes to make the Xbox360 wifi-capable.

Sasquatch

I do not own a PS3, so normally I am happy to hear about anything that makes the PS3 look bad (more games on the other consoles I do own). But to be honest I have been wanting this exact thing to happen for multiple generations of consoles now. So many times while playing KOTOR of Morrowind I thought to myself that I would happily give up a large chunk of time and space if I could just avoid the crazy long loading times. Despite that, making it mandatory does seem very questionable, the PS3 must has some serious loading time related flaw that everyone has been trying to hide. I have not read up much of PS3 hardware, does anyone know what that flaw might be? Slow game disk reading is my best guess, could also possibly be that the PS3 reads data from its Hard drive so incredibly fast that people just can not resist taking advantage of it. But if I remember correctly, the last game that required this ended up playing no differently on the 360... It must be a technical flaw that the 360 has managed to avoid.

Ultraseamus

@henhowc: Yeah, sorry about that, woke up in a bad mood.

Muckley

I have a 20GB PS3, and SHE NEEDS MORE POWER!

But seriously, the only thing really stopping me from buying a larger hard drive is laziness. I get around to it eventually.

ShirtGuyDom

@Ultraseamus: Blu-ray is amazingly slow and thus most ps3 games need to use the HDD to cache data, that's not a problem with the 360 because DVD-ROM read speeds are way faster. So yeah, big space for a sluggish read speed. I still feel this is better since games in the future will require bigger media, which is something the 360 does not have with dvd-rom. I have a 250 GB HDD on my ps3 and don't care about installs, i have a crapload of 720p and 1080p movies on it and still have a lot of space left, even with the game data for the 14 games i own (or at least for those that require installs and/or i have gotten DLC for).

AnnetteHizane

@gomerkyle9: Yeah, that was because of the possible power drawn from the faster drives but the one i linked to is newer tech that uses less power than the older 7200rpm drives and runs cooler too.So the website that reviewed them said after testing it.I think it used even less power than some 5400rpm drives aswell.Cant remember where i read this as it was a few months ago.I just googled the drive name and found it whilst browsing.

UFO

that sucks, at least make it optional

mpar

i wouldnt mind waiting 10 min for this install if it means muuuuch shorter loading times (or none at all), cause i honestly hate having to wait for area to load...then save my game....then load. Kinda takes the mood from the game away a tiny bit for me -.-

DarthMetalHope

OH MY LORD!!! TEN MINUTES???

Calm down people and go call a loved one or something during the install.

I think it's fine. My only gripe is that 5gb is pretty large. 2.5 gb should be the norm.

sascha23

@Smitty: Ah, thanks. For some reason I thought the elite had a wi-fi built in. Goddamn, it's still going to be expensive for me to get what I need then. I wonder if most people with 360s use a direct connection then?

sex-target

dannyCage: It's simple, the reason why xbox360 DO NOT have installs is because not every xbox sold has a harddrive.

The next xbox patch is going to enable installing games to the hard drive. As an option (IE, not mandatory).

There's another article here on kotaku that says that newer games won't see that big of an improvement from it since they're already optimized for loading, but older games will see a bigger improvement.

/IIRC, for DMC4, the loading times on the PS3 version were ~1-2 seconds faster than the XBOX version. IE, ~5 second loads vs ~7 second loads. But that's all hearsay.

lordargent

Well I'm going to cancel my Bioshock PS3 pre-order and get Pure Instead(I already own the 360 version of Bioshock so its all good).

5GB is just way too much space.

fenderfuel08

Sasquatch: @Funnydale: Don't forget to add the $100 it takes to make the Xbox360 wifi-capable.

$50 wireless bridge.

/Or a $60 dd-wrt hacked router, acting as a bridge == I can hook up 5 devices

/but yeah, seems like console makers want to gouge us on custom hardware (for example, PS2 memory cards are still $25 for 8MB new, WTF).

lordargent

Where us your next-gen now?

Jonn

@lordargent:

No, it doesnt have installs because the dvd drive could stream bioshock quickly enough to not require one. If they deemed it necessary, they would've allowed hard drive users to cache data to the hard drive, which MS has code for and gives to the developers for free anyway. Since theres no cache, i dont think the developers were concerned about streaming obviously...

Moar_pr0nz

@anglon:

I know that even with the ps3 version installed, the 360 version of SC 4 loaded faster when i timed both versions. but mandatory installs just blow

Moar_pr0nz

I wouldn't have a problem with this if the game install wasn't 5GB...goodness gracious.

Ryuk

@MattB: Are you having any issues with your 7200RPM HDD? I was going to go with a 7200RPM but I read some articles saying that it is best to stick with a 5400RPM drive.

I upgraded to 320GB so the install space is no big deal to me.
Having a game install is not really that big of a deal to me. Because while it is installing, I play my 360. lol.

Lord_Angerdorf

@Ecks: why dont you just...um uninstall some demos instead? what kind of severe ADD must aperson have to need that many games at once on their system?

Just askin'

fugit

I just upgraded my PS3 HD to 320GB.

Bioshock, do your worst.

gblock

@monkeybeach:

Even my pc has that problem with the game and I don't have a bad rig at all...yeah this is only an issue for ps3's with small HD. Also, I find it pretty weird for a console to have to install something that big, isn't blue ray suppose to be powerful?

GodKiller0

@Lord_Angerdorf: I've had no problems at all with my 7200RPM drive. That said, the hard drive I'm using is one of the Hitachi models that claims power usage closer to a 5400RPM drive. That could make a difference.

@AnnetteHizane: The 360 DVD isn't that much faster than the PS3's Blu-ray drive. Reading from some parts of the disc the 360 is actually slower. Of course most 360 games will be tuned to use the fast parts of the disc for the data they access most often, but that still isn't going to compare with a hard drive for speed.

@Brendar: Like the PS2, the PS3 design is a bit non-traditional. Both were designed around the concept of moving data around very fast. The PS3 does have issues regarding it's graphics memory as you say, but it also has more memory bandwidth than the 360 constant data rates from the drives. So yes, streaming off the hard drive could be seen as a work around for graphical weakness, but I'd argue it was a conscious design choice much as it was in the PS2 and that this is simply how Sony intend it to work.

MattB

@cio:

/agree

@Protector one:

And 20 gigs isnt even enough for not installing a game, and having DLed content, the 360 can attest to that.

So if it is that small, spend $100 and get a 500 gigger and be done. So easy to do.

EnigmaNemesis

Wow, who really fucking gives a shit. Seriously. Oh noes! They wasted 10 minutes of my life that I could've been playing BioShock sooner than I did with! What's it all for?!!!!

Retrogameplayer

I think it's fine. You can switch out the PS3 HDD with any other proper-fit HDD. And a 200GB HDD doesn't cost that much any more. Just about as much a special edition game.

Ryodestined

Poor Sony. This is the reason Nintendo chose the cartridge for the N64. That turned out to be a mistake, because the CD load times weren't such an issue. Now Sony has done the same thing again... but this time they made the mistake, because their Blu-ray drive is slow enough to be an issue! Meanwhile Microsoft and Nintendo are using tried and true (and most importantly faster) technology... and in this case it's not like cartridges where multiple discs is prohibitively expensive. This time, multiple discs isn't an issue. Sony made a big boo boo.

Zunnoab

the question i'd like to ask is.. can i transfer game saves and psn games over to a new harddrive somehow, if i buy a larger drive?

whats the deal with that? cause i really don't know how thats going to work. i dont want to lose everything!

joeloliol

@Protector one: Uhh yeah.. That's why I said I can understand the hard drive space issue.. Anyways...

cio