Note: There is an important distinction between "Games for Windows" certification (Crysis, Bioshock, GRID etc. are just dandy in my book), and "Games for Windows LIVE" (the god-awful online component and Xbox Live wannabe). I have Gears of War PC, and its integration with GFWLive is atrocious. You HAVE to be signed into your account in order to save your game, and saves are not transportable. (I game on my laptop and desktop, and this is incredibly annoying). The "matchmaking" and online modes were laughable (granted, nobody buys GoW PC for the multiplayer...)

Ah well. I wasn't buying GTAIV PC for the multiplayer anyway.

Joga

@Blaaguuu:

Oh please. Getting publishers to support widescreen monitors, 64-bit processors, and a standardized controller is a bad thing?

And GFWLive uses the same matchmaking that Xbox Live does and it's free... again, how is that bad?

DustoMan

@alaren: Yes, because saying something is "not that bad" practically makes him a card-carrying MS Kool-Aid salesman! (rolls eyes)

freakout

Sigh... Luke... there's nothing wrong with GFW Live now that it's free. Simmer down.

And to all the haters... get over it.

DustoMan

@NitrousO: I've seen piracy in every state, up to now. Believe me when I say it hasn't changed in ease at all. Granted, it's more automatic, but there's also a lot less privacy - ISPs are gonna notice that 6GB file going down, and Bittorrent is infamously not REMOTELY private. Compare to the nineties when it was all about borrowing and borrowing. And there were more PC game rental places back then as well.

HikariOblivion

@alaren: I own a Zune and I still think GFWL is a bad idea. Or at least a poorly implemented one.

chimp_o_death

@spartan22: You're right, it's not. Actually, I like it better than XP. I find the Sidebar especially handy, and the new Explorer interface is tops.

freakout

@QC8472: Games for Windows and Games for Windows live are two seperate things. Games for Windows is a label given to games that conform to certain set of features laid down by Microsoft. Things like 360 controller support and parental controls.

Now Games for Windows Live is something different. It means that the multiplayer aspect of the game is played on an Xbox Live type of network. It used to cost money, but now it's free. I'll wait and see how it works for myself before I flip out about this.

homernoy

@homernoy: All the same, the industry is far more profitable than it was then. The situation is entirely comparable.

It was damned simple to copy a floppy disk and trace the copy protection sheet/photocopy the manual, just like now there's a lot of people torrenting. Not to mention transferring that tiny amount over usenet. I'll admit, in the early days of the CD-ROM, it wasn't so much, then picked right back up in the later years of the mid-nineties.

Piracy's always been there, it's always been a sizable percentage of the audience. As the audience grows wider, so do the amount of pirates. To say it's a new happening is foolishness.

HikariOblivion

@spartan22: I don't know, spartan. Microsoft's kool-aid has always been a bit salty for my tastes. Nice to see someone's enjoying it, though.

alaren

Hey! I remember this game, i have finished the campaign a few times now, worn out the multiplayer... a few months ago, old news... right...

ryivanV2

@alaren: I never said GFW wasn't bad, I'm just saying its not the biggest problem PC gaming has, nor the worst thing ever to happen to it. I actually agree with most of your points.

NitrousO

I wonder how many of the haters are running vista right now. Calm down kids, it's not that bad.

spartan22

@HikariOblivion: Piracy has occurred since the beginning of PC gaming but bit-torrent made it huge and way too easy. Enough so that the computer illiterate friends of mine could bumble through it and have access to endless free games. Your right about companies using it as an excuse to screw customers for money though, which is further evidence of how bad it really is for PC gaming (or for honest shmucks to get hit with idiotic copy protection induced problems, like Stalker Clear Sky telling me the disc wasn't in the drive despite it very clearly being there).

NitrousO

@Kaizuden: That makes sense... here's hoping.

alaren

GFWL is a bad thing to happen to PC games because its a constant service running in the background.

Regardless, that's CPU cycles and memory bandwidth taken up from the game.

The service has been the worst thing to come to PC games since it mainly supports the use of peer to peer hosting like the Xbox360 and why very few games use it. So far, not many games using dedicated servers use GFWL because it sucks for network integration. You either use the crappy GFWL network or you dont. Its not worth the development time to find a compromise.

Viet0ne

@HikariOblivion: As internet accounts and bandwidth has increased over the years piracy numbers have gone straight up. There is far more piracy now than there used to be. Period.

homernoy

you all seem to be missunderstanding this.

This dosnt mean ts not comming to steam. take crysis. its on steam right now, Its an EA game published under the games for windows brand and it uses Gamespy as it online account manager. games fo window live just brings all the xbox live tool to pc devlopers and to pc gamers for free. games for windows is just a publishing brand, to bring some much needed standards to the pc market. whats wrong here?

this is just a silly reaction... oh and you people who want to use this a reson to pirate the game? grow up

cubed2D

@NitrousO: Well, a little hyperbole can go a long way. d^_^b

Most likely, I will wait and see if MS uses these games as an excuse to reinstitute pay-for-play on GFW Live. Their announcement back in July or whenever was for all "previous" GFW Live games to be free multiplayer. I have been playing multiplayer on my PC for DECADES and have never had to pay for it. GFW Live is Microsoft's attempt to monetize something--even though it's free now, don't expect it to stay that way.

One great way to prevent piracy is to have a strong online component in your game. Spore's DRM, for example, is almost totally unnecessary in that the game is a lot more fun with other users' creations. But GFW Live is horrible in itself, never mind that it plays into MS's monetization scheme. Consequently, the greatest economic (as opposed to ethical) value that a retail copy of GTAIV offers over a cracked copy of the same is now seriously hampered.

For me personally? I just won't buy the game, even though I fully intended to before this announcement. Fallout 3 is a tougher choice for me... I'll probably wait and see what the FO3 "online" component really is. GTAIV I wanted to buy for mouse-enabled multiplayer, but FO3 I want the single-player campaign regardless, and if I can install it without installing GFW Live I will probably do that.

alaren

Last I checked I found no problem with GFWL.

World in Conflict runs fast and perfectly fine. I think this is just one of those bandwagons where it's bad because the next persons says it is.

GFWL is actually a good thing, [en.wikipedia.org] maybe people should read up on it before they jump the gun.

1Mystic-G

I have never used Games for Windows Live, but I know it's free and I don't see how it could be worse than Gamespy. As long as the servers have a decent amount of players and there are no technical issues, I could care less.

homernoy

@NitrousO: Piracy never happened, it just is. People have been pirating PC games since the start. It's just that now companies can use it as an excuse for screwing the customer for more money.

HikariOblivion

@alaren: Having Fallout 3 using it isn't so much of an issue since no online play. Achievements for the whores like me will be there. But I'm sure Bethesda will keep the ability to use mods and other important stuff.

Kaizuden

@Blaaguuu: Really? I'm pretty sure Piracy has been the worst thing ever to happen to PC gaming.

NitrousO

Didn't they cut the whole payment-required bullshit on GFW Live, or was that a temporary thing?

HikariOblivion

Bitch's son, son of a bitch!

Snaphaunce

@alaren: You're not honestly going to use this as a reason to pirate these games are you? Is anyone? If so, I have to say that pirates are sad little creatures indeed.

NitrousO

Games For Windows Live, and the whole "Games For Windows" thing in general is the worst think to ever happen to PC gaming.

We have consoles that want to be more like PCs, and now PCs that want to be consoles... I like my PC gaming just the way it is!

Blaaguuu

Steam + Ventrilo + Xfire > GFWL

Hand_O_Death

Alot of today's PC game developers seem to think they have to be under the games for windows banner, as it was some kind of rating system and make them sell more games; but I'd say it makes the games much less appealing.

And for multiplayer, I think, using steam for multiplayer would be much better.

QC8472

Err...why is this bad?

Does Games for Windows run the game at a lower... framerate, or something?

?!?!?

Moonshadow101

Pretty much great if you want the achievements, but didn't they stop the "gold" service fees for GFWL? Only road bump now is that the service might be sub-par on Microsoft servers but I wouldn't know... I'll need to look into this.

Kaizuden

No reason not to pirate this then.

KIDDING!

...

nolanvoid

Not that i really care but, as a pc gamer Microsoft you suck. Stay on your console and do what you want, but when you bring your evil to pc i dont stand for that.

PS3 GTA4> All other GTA4

Allcars

Hmm... I couldn't care less about GTAIV, but I'd love a GFWL account so I could do voice chat with my XBL playing friends and see what games they were playing. It's a lot better than buying a 360.

bobtheduck

Good news for achievement whores that'll play the game again on PC though. Which includes me... Yay achievements!

cheesecake000

@alaren: Wait wait... wait.

Fallout 3 is going to use GFW Live TOO!? These are the only two games I care about right now!

*fires up Azureus*

Frickin' Microsoft.

alaren

@Rohit_N: It did indeed. It was most confusing having both the GFWL interface and the Steam friends interface available, too!

Fullforce

@Rohit_N:

"Grand Theft Auto IV will be running exclusively under the Games for Windows Live banner."

Congratulations, R*. You just lost yourself a customer.

Anaralia

Ugh...just ugh....

CitizenInsane27

W00t! I don't care too much about the games for live since I already have an 360 gold account, just another way to earn achievement points :p

titlecade

@Rohit_N: "will debut on the PC this November exclusively as a Games for Windows-branded title"

Luke Plunkett

Is it me or does it appear GFWL is doing more harm to the PC industry the good it purports to do.

Dear, Microsoft leave my PC games alone please.

-EDGE-

What.

Ugh. And I was all ready to pay full retail for this one! I'd rather have Spore DRM than GFW Live.

alaren

GFWL games are impossible to come on Steam? I though Kane & Lynch used the system.

Rohit_N

Hooray! :D More ways to make use of my gold account.

Skyburnbright

@HikariOblivion:

I'm gonna have to agree with Hikari. I'm not that old in the classical sense, but I've been around long enough to pirate stuff. Back in the day, all you had to do was install the game. Period. It might ask you what so and so says in the manual on page X, but that was it. Add with the internet and the relatively small size of games back then, and you could have a nice cache of software downloaded in no time(even with 56k).

Fast forward to today and you have to pay for a premium service if you want the game downloaded in any reasonable amount of time. Factor in the fact that you have to properly overwrite specific key files that could corrupt the installation, download random key generators full of trojans, and you generally can't play online with regular customers without online verification (end up having to play on nonsecure servers) really makes piracy a pain.

Pezdispenser

@QC8472: I certainly wasn't implying you're flipping out, and I didn't mean for it to come across that way. Sorry ;) I think I will at some point if the majority of PC games I purchase are on GfWL and the service and the service turns out to be horrific.

In saying that, I love Games for Windows for all of it's features.

homernoy

@Allcars: HA! Whatever you say....

You enjoy your PS3 GTA IV, while I play GTA IV at 1920 x 1080, aa/af, larger view distance, and a crap ton full of mods to make the game 10x better than it already is.

mva5580

@homernoy: Flipping out? I just feel the industry is going the easy way, that's all.

As for live or not, the two labels are used to promote games more than it being a standard that people know about, wouldn't you say?

QC8472

I haven't bought PC games since... Diablo II?

Just tell, does this one run on XP? I have the required specs otherwise.

jeffx

Fucking thing sucks! we'll do it live!

SatanicBoomBoomHead

games for windows live ftw!

schlizzag

@Stevedroid: Games for Windows is a set of features, like widescreen support, parental control, 360 controller support, etc........and a game gets this label when it meets these standards set by Microsoft.

Games for Windows Live on the other hand, is an online feature that is similar to Xbox live, with gamertags and friends. There are some gripes with the Games for Windows live service, as you might have noticed by reading some of the posts here.

I have never tried Games for Windows Live myself, but I do have Gears PC and I will check it out tonight.

homernoy

@jeffx:I have yet to see a game that will not officially run on XP, with the exception of Halo 2 and Shadowrun. That's been awhile since those games were released, and there have since been no other Vista only games to my knowledge.

homernoy

Too bad Roman died at the end.

^_^

theEnemy

Yeah I'm not sure I understand how Games for Windows precludes the game from being on Steam.

In fact, given that Games for Windows is just a qualification, a set of requirements, I don't understand how saying something is "exclusively" a Games For Windows game makes any sense. I mean about the only thing I could logically get from that is that there won't be a Mac or Linux version - which isn't exactly something news worth championing.

What is MS up to here? They launch the GFW branding, then completely forget about it for year, and now it's suddenly all important again.

Luke, can you please get some concrete info on what they actually mean by "exclusive" here?

Stevedroid

I was wishing to see it on Steam.. but.. oh well, I'm still getting it :P

CockroachMan

I have not tried games for windows - live, yet... But, I like the idea of getting achievements for PC gaming...

kladkain

As long as:
I get dedicated servers
I get a legitimate server browser.

I will not mind GFW Live. If GTA PC online ends up anything like GTA 360 online I will be very disappointed.

mattmoto

That sucks, but I'll live. I'm just glad I don't have to buy a crappy 360 as well as my gaming PC.

d3ath_fly

@freakout: Like... you?

No--my mistake. That's not kool-aid, that's astroturf. d^_^b

alaren

@ViperBorg:

Canada uses ESRB.

I seriously cannot believe you said Canada. That's hilarious...

SgtAdam

@NoBullet: No. That was just a promotion that'll end when LIVE 'relaunches' on the 360.

ChaosBahamut

So, nobody is happy that Microsoft is really focusing on PC Gaming more than ever before??

...

cjcamilla

@schlizzag: Ballmer? Is that you?

ViperBorg

Wait, does that mean it will be free to play on the 360? Like all ther other GFW cross platformed games with 360 (shadowrun, Lost planet)

NoBullet

@dawimp523: Ah, you just beat me. But thanks, I was way off.

ViperBorg

@Adisah: Canada's rating system, I think. Or Europe's.

ViperBorg

@Adisah: It's Australia's version of the M-rating we have. Although, I think they have a stricter rating that pretty much bans any game that gets this rating.

dawimp523

I have to disagree with the "slightly disappointing!" diagnosis about GFWL. I have a PS3, I use Steam, I play non-Steam online games on the pc, and use or have used Xfire and other similar services. But I also have an Xbox and an Xbox 360 and have had a gamertag for over five years now. I have more of my friends on xbox live than any of the other services combined- it's just the way it ended up. PC friends drifted away, people no longer wanted to keep up with the hardware race, or their financial situations only allowed for one "next-gen" system, and the 360 just came along first. For whatever reason, XBL is the default, not the exception, to getting together with my friends online.

Yea a lot of other PC games offer a superior way of doing online, but sometimes it gets old having 20 different games that use 3 or 4 different methods of meeting up or communicating. Then you have to get your friends on board to setup accounts and arrange things ahead of time, exchange info, etc. It instantly splinters an already reluctant crowd.

So GFWL integrates on top of what is my most used gaming service and allows me to chat, exchange messages, see what friends are playing, and change the playlist for the evening, if that's the consensus, and even earn achievements in the process. Now it's free, and I don't have to have 3 other programs running at the same time that may not play nice with a game, or even each other.

So maybe it's not ideal on a title by title basis, but it works for me and I actually was happy to hear the news. I'm sure there are plenty out there that feel the opposite, or have more a established prescence in other online communities, but there also have to be others out there that feel the same way as I do.

Killtacular

I don't know what's up with that special MA +15 thing. I never seen that before. Does that mean 15 and up or what's the deal.

I apologize if this is an ignorant question.

Adisah

I have no problem with GFW...what I do have a problem with is all the Steam Users who have bought the GTA collection on Steam...and are now getting left out in the cold when it comes to GTA 4. Many people who bought the collection were rebuying games they had previously bought just so they could have them on Steam. Steam is the best platform available today for PC's. It's incomplete without GTA 4.

thor79

@Aethyr: ? My steam seems to have crashes left and right along with other anomalies (like telling me my friend is online but when I try to join his server, it says his server doesn't exist while I am talking to him and he is confirming he is in fact in that server).

NitrousO

@EaGle1337: Because it is seven different types of awesome. And one of them is that it provides a unified interface from which to access all of one's games. Another is that it lets you set up online matches so easily. Love it.

Aethyr

hey guys why don't you complain that steam uses memory and cpu resources?

EaGle1337

@Allcars:

Please. No version is better than another.

Opinions are opinions.

SgtAdam

Well, exclusive is a time-based thing now. Age of Conan was exclusive to GFW before it was released on steam several months later.

Poisonous Taoist

I think Games for Windows LIVE could completely redeem itself if every game was cross-platform with Xbox LIVE, like Shadowrun, Halo 2, and the vaporware UNO!(only the GfW LIVE edition is vaporware).

Surfaced

I'm actually excited for this. I'll get to play with Xbox guys and we get the Marketplace on PC. I already have my gamertag too.

Clarke

@ChaosBahamut: Oh, ok

NoBullet

@DustoMan:

ITS NOT RELIABLE THAT'S WHY ITS BAD, it does one of many things crash and burn on start up, crash while playing said game, antivirus/firewalls programs have to be added manually, lose save games, lose achievements, fail to d/led ur gamer profile and save games, hang randomly

Anyone that was dumb enough to buy gears of war for pc like me will know this if u don't believe me goto Epics forum's [gearsforums.epicgames.com] and punch in windows live and prepare to be shocked at the sheer number of problems related to WINDOWS LIVE

good going Rockstar u just lost urself a customer!

HitokiriX

I'm confused. How is this a bad thing? Games for Windows LIVE is free now.

RedFive

@alaren: Damn it! You've exposed me! Guess I might as well admit it now: I'm Steve Ballmer posting under a pseudonym. For the last several years, Microsoft has devoted millions of dollars to astroturfing the comments sections of video game blogs with positive remarks about Windows Vista, in an attempt to sway the opinion of the illiterate goons who populate such places. Once we had the "moron market" cornered... the potential for massive, windfall profits was just too great to ignore.

We thought we were operating under a cloak of the strongest secrecy. Obviously, we didn't account for your cunning investigative skills nor your innate intuition. You have bested us, sir!

Back to the drawing board, I guess.

freakout

@DustoMan:

It's bad because it takes one more aspect of control out of the users hands. What happens if the live servers go down one day? It's happened to countless other games that require you to go through a central server to play multiplayer.

sluissa

@ Dustoman

Its bad because 90% of other pc games have a free matchmaking service so i dont see how it being 'free' is a selling point. as a PC gamer i wouldnt expect anything less, matchmaking has nearly always been free.

Its bad because the service it provides is sub par compared to other standards on the system. The last game on pc i tried to play online with games for windows live only connected or found appropriate matches around 1 in ten times. It was awful!

NovaBlack

@ HikariOblivion

why are people bashing you??
your totally right!!

i hate all this 'piracy is so much easier now' crap. im sorry... but it used to be far easier!

all i had to do was install a game and get my friend to photocopy a page in the manual with special codes on. that was IT. didnt have to instal anysoftware, read how to do it on forums etc etc... it was simply photocopy , (or write on paper!) like one page of a manual.

Im sorry at best piracy today is EQUALLY easy as it was.. but easier? no way. Piracy has ALWAYS been around.

The numbers havent increased because a higher percentage of ppl pirate (like ppl are becoming more corrupt) its increased purely as the number of gamers has increased. Its a subtle but important difference. Of the current market there are buyers, and there are pirates. but the ratio of pirates to buyers has always been areound the same.

So yeah say there may be twice as many pirates nowadays, as gaming becomes more mainstream, theres also twice as many legit consumers.. so it balances out completely.

Theres actually the potential to make MORE money nowadays. Companuies need to realise they dont need teams of 50 ppl working on a 10 million dollar budget just to get the best graphics. Focus on gameplay for once, and you can make a cheap game that'l sell like hotcakes.

NovaBlack

Excellent. Now I can dust off this Gamertag I had laying around just in case.

Frank

@NovaBlack: People are bashing me? :)

Agreed completely. Especially your closing statement. Part of the reason I support StarDock, and indie gaming.

HikariOblivion

Very sad news. I can't beleive people are leting Microsoft getting away withy payed online services for the 360, It is something I have for over a decade on Pc for free, including DLC. Since i only have a Wii, I was looking forward for this one (namely for the mod possibilities and expanded online MP) but with htis news, count me out of this one.

Shiryu

Oh no. :(

Rockstar... you are rockstars ffs, why do you team up with the lamest corporation on this planet?

lumpi

@NitrousO: @NitrousO:
That seems like a red herring to me. It's like people talking about how a suntan lotion gives rashes. And then you come out and tell everyone it's not a problem because skin cancer is way worse.

The fact of the matter is people in general dont like GFW Live. LIVE works great on 360. But I'm not going to rebuy the game for PC for the same experience w/ fancier graphics.

I want the ability to have player run dedicated servers (preferably on linux). To have multiplayer mods. Remember the Desert Combat mod for battlefield 1942? Imagine mods of that scope for GTA4. Well, GFW Live is going to throw a wrench in it.

string_theory

@DragonNinja:

Also, I'm laughing at the guys saying they're gonna pirate it just because of GFW, you can still play the game without it, it's only needed for multiplayer, GTAs Multiplayer isn't all that great anyway, only Free Roam is fun but even that wears off after a while.

DragonNinja

It may still come out on Steam at some point.

I have the 360 version anyway so I'm already set, not that it'd run on my crappy PC.

DragonNinja

I've used GFW live and i didn't really have the huge problem that everyone seems to have found with it

Epj13

Man, that sucks. I always buy games of Steam. I rarely buy games from shops anymore. Now I have to get out of the apartment and all that.

And Windows Live is just the worst. The interface is all screwed up and annoying. Maybe I'm a steam-fanboi but anything from M$ is usually a bad thing.

skaune

This is old news. Though it wasn't officially announce, the GfWL logos were plastered on the GTA4 website.
For me: I don't mind at all. It's superior to some online systems out there, and I can be a bit of an achievement whore :s

Estel

@skaune: Because a game is Games for Windows Live doesn't mean it won't be released on Steam. Juiced 2, Kane and Lynch and The Club were all GfWL but were also distributed by Steam. Given Rockstar's publishing their catalogue on Steam previously, it doesn't seem too unlikely that GTA4 will also get a Steam release.

Estel

Why does everyone complain? If you want to play it on XP, buy it and crack it. eazy peazy.

Desertwolf

@Anaralia: Then again, your money from a single purchase won't put a dent in their paychecks.

Americo

Just... *sigh*

CukyDoh

Meh, I'll just wait until it hits steam and buy GTA:IV as well as some of the other GTA's I've had my bloodshot eye on.
I'd rather use Steam's awesome multiplayer mode anway.
It's coming to Steam, right?
Right?
Please?
...

Mikebrown

I want it for Wii.

dude49

This is really bad news! I hate GFWL a lot, for stated reasons. I was gonna buy it in a box, you know at the store...like I did with gta before. But now no, I'll pirate it and wait for the steam version to buy it.

GodKiller0

@Poisonous Taoist: Urgh, would people please still getting these concepts confused?

Games for Windows/LIVE is NOT a software distribution method. There is no reason a GfW title cannot be released on Steam or any other download service, whilst still remaining GfW.

GfW is just a specification which dicatates various things that games much do (such as support the Vista game explorer, support a controller and a lot of boring technical stuff).
GfWL just extends this by introducing a standard networking API. That's it. This does not preclude distribution over Steam.

Estel

In my country, and I guess in many other countries as well, the multiplayer xbox live service is unavailable. MS marketing products say it is, but it's a lie. Even though the game is out, I cannot play in multiplayer, because "this service is not available in your country". With any other multiplayer system, I could have been playing from the get-go. With GFWL, I get a game with reduced functionality. How this is normal and acceptable? Why is this even an issue?

yhalothar

Won't by buying now. GfW is a PoS.

TenP

The multiplayer for GTA4 sucks anyway, it's no big loss. Plus Windows Live is free now anyway.

FilthyAssistant

There's still hope that it'll come to Steam as well. You never know.

Spidery_Yoda

The question remains. Does this still mean we will see pc vs xbox 360 matches online like lost planet colonies?

Raptr569

At least it's free now...

rizzo9972