This is a horrible article.

"It looks like we're at five activations per game now, up from three; that's unlimited installs on each of five PCs, as I understand it, and a deauthorization tool is coming."

His argument is that the complaining wasn't valid because things that were a RESULT of the complaining are being given to us? The only reason those things are "coming" is because of the complaints.

That's like saying "Women shouldn't have complained about not being able to vote, because their complaining made it so that they'd be allowed to vote." It's just a nonsensical argument.

Not to mention him saying "that's unlimited installs on each of five PCs, as I understand it" is simply false. Why is he writing on a subject that he's not educated on the basics of?

It's the consumers responsibility to inform other consumers. When EA puts the DRM requirements on the box next to "Best of E3" and the minimum requirements, then maybe people should stop being so vocal about it. Until actual transparency is gained there is no reason to not complain abou tthe DRM. The only transparency that exists concerning their DRM right now is that which is created by people who were burnt by it speaking out.

That's just shitty writing.

TheBassKicks

THANK YOU. I've been complaining about how much hyperbole and bad logic have surrounded this entire incident.

People constantly use terms like "draconian" and say "I'm pirating the game to prove a point to EA" as if this is something worth starting a bloody revolution over.

In my mind, if you don't agree with the DRM that are put in games, the best thing you can do is not give them your money and write them a letter. If I worked at EA, one well-thought-out letter would be worth all the one star Amazon ratings in the world.

But maybe I'm insane. Maybe EA doesn't treat level-headedness in kind.

ShirtGuyDom

@ramenite: No they just install quicktime. yuck...

At least it's not a program that disables stuff.

Ajh

Subterranean DRM blues?

AlphaMoose

@Netnavi: It probably IS coming though.

Ajh

Comparing a game's drm to iTunes is difficult for me to swallow. Yes, it's correct that DRM exists on any song you buy on iTunes(except for iTunes Plus songs). However, I'm also not looking to have a chance to make any money back on my 0.99$ song. It's just so cheap that it's not really a concern. But there's 2 other things to remember about that. iTunes DRM allows for de-authorization. That's not in Spore(yet). Secondly, you can burn your music in iTunes, then rip that cd or give it away to a friend. The iTunes DRM just makes it all a bit more difficult and costly.

Once the publishers come up with a DRM scheme that makes it more difficult and costly for a consumer to make a copy for a friend, that should be the only thing needed to dissuade the so called "casual pirate".

But I think we all know the truth of the matter. Companies like EA hate Gamestop. They don't see money from resells. In a very real way that affects their bottom line. Now it's of course questionable as to whether they deserve to see gains off of secondary sales. Auto manufacturers don't see them. Home builders don't see them. Why should game publishers see them?

The point being that it's a debate that the publisher will likely lose. And since getting money out of a secondary sale is unlikely, the best way to handle it is to take away the ability to have a secondary sale. These draconian DRM schemes are tailored specifically to do just that, under the guise that the "casual pirate" will be halted.

I have to wonder just how many sales that EA lost in all this Spore debacle. How many more thousands of copies would they have sold had the DRM they used not been so hated. But I also wonder how many sales they might have gained in all the advertisement they received freely from all the discussion over Spore's DRM scheme.

shizknight

@Erode: This!

I totally understand why they feel the need to use it as well. Companies just need to be more responsible about it and there won't be a problem.

And for the love of all that is good, deauthorization tools make a world of difference.

pinkpuppet

Well, iTunes doesn't install services that disable other legitimate programs, occasionally break hardware, and cause general system instability.

I'm not going to install other programs I don't want on my computer, just so you can protect YOUR rights. That's the "rights" in DRM--their's. There's no reason why I need to jump through hoops when I have a legal license to run the game. It's just no worth it.

I don't take the view of others that "I'll just get the better pirated version". I just don't buy the game, and convince others not to buy it when they ask my opinion. It's why I didn't buy Mass Effect on the PC, and considering Mirror's Edge is from EA, It will probably have SecuROM, so I won't purchase that either. If a game requires I install SecuROM, or SecuROM like programs to run, I don't run it.

ramenite

@mva5580: I really, really can't wait for the time that console games have similar types of DRM.

please be joking.

Netnavi

It's over-reaction to have something installed on MY computer that I don't even want there.

Or, how about, the fact that I paid for something I don't even fucking own? Fuck that. I'll continue looking 'elsewhere' for my games until they figure something better out. I've had a couple bad, bad, experiences with SecuROM and Starforce.

Or, you know, have a warning label on the packaging stating that they use a DRM scheme that installs software on your PC that's very annoying to remove and may make other programs inoperable. Or destroy your disk drives. Etc.

Tizlor

@boringjob2: Just wait until you use up those 5 play-on-this-computer licenses. Two more upgrades to my computer, and I'm forced into re-purchasing some of my music collection. Although, this is being fixed by that iTunes-Plus format.
You can get around it by burning and ripping your music back to your computer.
That is a pain

firstworldman

Amazon.com has DRM free music for .99 cents...what were you saying?

kagai

Free thinking is one thing but I get the feeling this guy is acting the opportunist here. iTunes drm is the only reason I don't use it anymore. Paying for a song twice just so I can use it as a ringer on my cell phone? no thanks.

I'm not going to stop bitching about drm just because of a deauth tool that may or may not come out. If the prices on these products weren't so exorbitant then maybe.

You cant argue that drm only hurts the honest customer. Pirates dont have to deal with authorizations why should I?

404mistake

It's not exactly the same. As far as i know itunes DRM is on iTunes and it's music and not on a low level place in your system. It also doesn't cripple your optical drive, or your software debugers if you are a programer, and won't chew up your ram if you are not using iTunes (maybe it will).

Also the music from iTunes -if i'm not mistaken since i don't have an iTunes music store in my country- let's you burn audio CDs with them wich strips down the DRM. And has also been slowly getting rid of the DRM on music where the music labels agree on it. On video it's another matter.

Falsoman

@Telecinision: Oh, here's a link to that comment. [www.amazon.com]

Telecinision

I saw "Righteous Fury" in Remo's second comment and all I could think of is Paladins. Damn you, World of Warcraft.

Anyways, the reaction to Crysis Warhead's DRM on sites like Amazon are ridiculous. The first comment on the game is how much Securom 7, its DRM, is like a virus considering how hard it is to remove from your system. I'd give that a nothanks.jpg.

Telecinision

I agreed with Remo's point when I read his post at PA. Although personally I only buy the DRM-free music from iTunes, I still think some people should start putting game-DRM into context. For example, there are people who still bitch about Steam and argue that one day you won't have access to all the games you bought!!!! These people are just looking for reasons to argue against any form of DRM, and most of them are happily pirating stuff so want some sort of moral excuse to make them feel better.

Yes, horrible DRM that can break your DVD-drive (or worse) and limits the number of installs you make (without allowing you to de-authorize your PC, which EA have now added/are adding to Spore) is really bad and we should vote with our wallets buy not buying the games which feature it.

However, if you then go onto pirate said game as some sort of objection, then you're no better than common pirates. Actually, you're worse. At least pirates are honest with themselves and acknowledge that they just don't want to pay for stuff they can get for free.

Kazzahdrane

The bitching for Spore certainly was excessive, almost to the point that I figured it was a new form of viral marketing (assuming that those truly bitching won't buy it anyway the advertising value of putting the name out there might be more beneficial).

You gotta realize that whatever they say about the 'maturity' of gamers, it's still chock full of the younger crowd when compared to other hobbies, and let's not forget about the anonymity cloud known as the internet either. If people can seriously get worked up to bitch about console wars and oddball DLCs, then they sure as hell will complain about DRMs as well.

muu

My main problem with the DRM is the secrecy of it all; granted the limited installs irked me a bit but it wasn't what pissed me off.

I completely understand that the publisher/developers need to feel like their product is protected; I get that. But to implement something into the product that is potentially devastating to the user system and damn near impossible to get rid of, and then hide it from the consumer is not the way to go about it.

Erode

The problem is making it a pain for consumers. Apple is different because for the most part, it works well and we aren't bashed over the head with restrictions and whatnot.

boringjob2

@mva5580: I don't even mind that we have to activate something online. I really don't. I just don't like stuff installing other than the games. This all really started when Sony put a rootkit on their music cds.

Ajh

The problem with DRM is that it truly only affects honest consumers. Lets be honest here. The moment a game is released you can look online and find a cracked copy without DRM restrictions. If they are so easy to bypass and its so easy to find these cracks...why use them in the first place?

It like locking a safe that can be opened by kicking it. Its pointless and the only one who pays the price is the person who PAID for the safe.

parad0x360

A. Freaking. Men. That's really all I have to say. But now of course, the flood gates will open with all of these over-reacting crybabies flaming this topic to all hell.

I really, really can't wait for the time that console games have similar types of DRM. Because it's coming, it's only a matter of time.

mva5580

@Joebob-X:

Agreed... iTunes isn't the only service and program available that people use. Plus people DID complain about iTunes DRM and if I remember correctly Apple loosened it up a bit. So it goes to show that if you just sit quietly nothing is going to change.

Masx

So true. BioShock was the last game I bought with SecuROM, and it was just another step to putting in your key code. I never ran into any issues with it.

Complaining for the sake of complaining, or using such a ridiculous excuse as "DRM!!!" to pirate is childish bullshit.

e-friend

A few people here and the penny arcade guy needs to understand that people have been complaining about DRM pretty much since it's conception. Some are "better" then others which obviously wouldn't receive as much spotlight as Spore, Mass Effect, and Bioshock.

It's not something new and I don't see why people see it's a bad thing that they are trying to fight for a less intrusive protection and allow honest customers to not be treated as though they are potential thieves. When does one start to complain? When does one not complain at all? Things don't change if you sit on the side quietly.

The thing is the DRM that companies use are usually very instrusive and sure many of the average customers won't go though the set number of activations. But they are also the same people who wouldn't really care much about this topic. I mean seriously what did this DRM on Spore solve or do to protect the game? Absolutely nothing... the game was released on to the internet 1 WEEK before it's official release date. Not to mention reading people's reviews and comments it has the DRM removed.

Personally I think companies should do a 1 times online activation with the CD-key tied to a account you made.

Masx

Yeah, Remo is definitely a little off the mark on this one. He's using iTunes as an example is a poor one at best seeing as I've never heard of anyone complaining that iTunes bricked their cd drive. Also in the same vein, people AREN'T all satisfied with iTunes. Why do you think they came up with itunes plus and why does the amazon mp3 store have ZERO drm? His argument just shows that even these other industries have gone away from drm more and more. And the argument that EA is so kind by now giving us five installations? Why do you think we have those installations? Because we had to fucking fight for it. They never would have done that, hell they never would have done away with the ten day reactivation from mass effect if gamers weren't up in arms over it. I hate that people come up with the idea that inaction is a legitimate solution and that we should be happy with what we have. The companies have no requirement to go without DRM, but as consumers, we're the only ones that will affect these policies. So Chris can get on his high horse, but I know that if we don't continue to watch these things, the companies will keep getting worse and worse drm schemes.

Joebob-X

And it also seems like these companies don't realize the general flaw with ALL DRM, and why it will always be broken. And this isn't a normally brought up point in these discussions.

Let's look at encryption. Alice and Bob want to send a message. Now, there are mathematically proven methods to do this securely. It's because there's only two people involved, and it keeps a 3rd party out. Works great.

Now look at DRM. DRM is also a form on encryption. But Alice & Bob in this case isn't the company and the purchaser. It's the Company and the DRM system. Problem is, Charlie is the one that BOUGHT the message, and needs to use it. You can stack whatever insane ideas you want to try to not let anyone else but Charlie access it, but you've broken the secure chain. It doesn't matter WHAT you do to try and keep things secure between Alice & Bob. You poke a hole in it so Charlie can read it. That means everyone can read it. That's why all DRM is cracked so quickly.

It doesn't matter how many times I encrypt a message. If I have to give all the keys to an untrusted 3rd party, it's all moot. And that's what you have to do with DRM. Charlie isn't trusted. Which eventually what has happened is they keep stacking encryption methods on each other, and it's gotten to the point where Charlie says "the hell with it, there's too many hoops to jump through to read this message". And he doesn't purchase it. A pirate on the other hand, WILL jump through all these hoops to get the message, and then just distribute it. Which is what you have now.

ramenite

@firstworldman: You can just deauthorize all computers and start over... at least in the Mac version of iTunes. Just head to your account information, deauthorize all computers, and then authorize the current one from the Store menu.

The Whaleman

Is there a way we can get a bigger picture of Bob Dylan holding the "DRM Sucks" sign? (The one that's above the article).

So awesome.

Benjamin Linus

@Netnavi: @Netnavi: He is probably joking but yeah...

I can't wait for the time we pay 60 bucks for our next console game and it only works with my user acount (if my brother or a friend want's to play he has to pay again for the game). And the game installs software on my console that can probably break the optical drive and will cripple other functions on said console so you do not become a dirty pirate or make the console slow even if i'm not running the game.

And if the console breaks i have to call the console manufacturer and each of the companies that made each of the game i purchased so i can play them again.

This is gonna be great. Specially when i can't play the offline parts of the game a couple of years later when the companies just shut down the activation servers.

Good times!

Falsoman

I don't think itunes can be compared to the DRM in games. Simply put, if I want a track, sure I can buy it from itunes, but I can also buy that same track from many different places, online or off. However with DRM on games, all versions of the same game will have the same DRM. While itunes is a choice, games offer nothing like that, if I want to play Spore I need to deal with the DRM.

Fozziedave

@Ajh:

How?

Not allowing us to play the game on more than one console?

Vecha

I think it's only natural for companies to want to try and prevent piracy of their material, especially a company that makes games, because a lot of time and money go into them.
However when preventing piracy becomes preventing functionality for legitimate customers then you know you have taken it too far.

Two additional points.

1. Any DRM is only going to be able to prevent the AVERAGE user from being able to copy and pirate it, it is not going to stop it from being copied and pirated.
You know what else achieves this result? The simple act of data encryption. You know the DRM of the olden days. Average user can't manipulate it, hackers can. Same as before, same as now, same as forever. Think of something else besides trying to restrict how we can use our purchased property.

2. Games cost a lot more than songs on itunes do.

ridepod

@ShirtGuyDom: Yeah most letters probably get tossed though. Pity.

Ajh

@firstworldman: You can also use a DRM removal program. I did that with all my old iTunes songs after having to deauthorize and reauthorize a million computers a million times. It was ridiculous. You are well within your legal rights. You are violating Apple's EULA, but then you aren't violating the UnDRM program's EULA. Which EULA wins? I don't know... I'd point you in the right direction, but I did this back in iTunes 5, and haven't bought music from them since then, and I doubt the old tactics/programs still work.

ZeroBlade

@TheDude06: Actually, it is on three separate machines. It's just that you can trigger another one by changing components on your system. Once you activate it on your system, the activation doesn't go away unless you revoke it or change hardware that it detects.

Joebob-X

@mva5580: Wow, you are a teeny bit of a masochist aren't you?

I think what's important here is that our rights are being limited. We buy the game, so we have the right to play it wherever and however we want, otherwise, they should stop calling it a sale and just call it a rental, or lease maybe? Because it won't work forever. And the difference with iTunes is, that I don't use their store. I use Amazon's DRM free service or I buy the cd, or use eMusic or some other DRM free service. Apple gets away with it because people put up with it.

The thing is with Spore, I don't have that option. I can't go elsewhere and buy a DRM-free version. I have one DRM flavored game, and thats all. And that is what the problem is in my opinion. That and it does nothing to stop piracy.

ZeroBlade

DRM is bad for us customers... I don't see any way why anyone would want to "smooth talk" this?

retronaut

firstly, most shit in itunes DOESNT HAVE drm anymore! they dropped it due to CUSTOMER DEMAND, almost 2 years ago now. The last album i bought didnt have a DRM'ed option available!

nextly, its not unlimited installs on each of 5 computers. thats a fairly easy point to research before making a big public rant. its three (they have not updated to 5 yet) activations period. 3 on the same computer, if you lose your savegame with the activation information in it.

TheDude06

@Kocrachon: How does this stop those people? They can still install it on more than one PC. So now five friends can feasibly share one copy, causing EA to lose 4 sales. With the normal disk check, those friends would have to keep tossing the disk back and forth. Doesn't sound like it's working to me.

Joebob-X

I also remembered a critical part of my argument over the latest version of securom. Even if you own a physical copy of the game you have purchased, there is zero guarantee that you can play it. That's a big gripe with me and one of the many aspects that Remo neglects to address. At least with the old securom disk checks you can always be sure that assuming there are no conflicts, that disk allows you to play your game. Now you have to hope that you have a stable internet connection and that their servers are still up. I know I wouldn't still be playing Might and Magic 6 these days if they had online activations.

Joebob-X

@shizknight:

And HERE lies the problem. You children now see why Games are strict.

Yes it hurts honest people, but there are a **** load of people out there who don't download pirate it, but just give their friends their CDs so they can play it themselves. This is the type of pirate they are trying to stop. And it WORKS. It already let you install the game on THREE SPERATE PCs, an unlimited amount of times on those 3 PCs, how many more PCs do you plan to install it on?

Kocrachon

@e-friend:

I couldn't play Bioshock for 2 months because I didn't have access to an internet connection at the time when I bought it.

what are you talking about?

outofreach

I remember when we used to own our games. Good times.

Caowyth

@kagai:
As much as I love AmazonMP3, its song selection just isn't as great as that of iTunes.

Rohit_N

When people buy a game, they want to own it.

DRM technology essentially makes every purchased game a rental, because the consumers has no control over how it's used, or how long they will use it...

There are hundreds of other reasons DRM technology is stealing from consumers....

outofreach

@e-friend:

You are pretty misinformed. People are not complaining about DRM so they can pirate games. So no need for me to comment any further then that if you are so short sighted to see why they are complaining.

Masx

@TheBassKicks: You said it perfectly.

MikeKelley

@grangerfx: @parad0x360: Wow! I didn't know that about walmart. That is like the epitome of an example for why this kind of DRM is bad. Did Chris Remo even think of the consequences when he wrote his op-ed?

Joebob-X

[gizmodo.com]

Here's yet another example that popped up today of DRM utterly screwing legitimate buyers. The kind of hostility that consumers are showing towards DRM-using companies is completely warranted, because without that sort of backlash, they'll go right on doing the same thing, to the detriment of every consumer. They need to be smacked and smacked hard, or we'll be seeing rootkits on every CD, Starforce on every video game.

Valatar

*Sigh* more DRM rubbish. I don't buy iTunes music.
I won a voucher for iTunes in a GHIII compo, so I did try it... saw how crippled the DRM music was(quality was only 128 ABR :S) then went and got a torrent of FLACs and ripped the music from them...
I then bought the CDs more recently and re-ripped the music...
Again DRM will only be fine when it only inconveniences the pirate and not the customer.
I had major grievances with Steam until about a year ago...(I was stuck without internet access when HL2 originally launched) I actually like Steam right now, since they added "Start Offline" meaning you can actually play your games sans internets.

PokeParadox

Didn't iTunes get rid of DRM and now offer DRM free music tracks?

jimmyNewtron

@Kazzahdrane: The Steam theory of a content system being taken offline which in effects locks out the content you paid for has already happened couple times. Multiple music stores have shut their doors leaving customers with useless files. Walmart is the latest to close down and they are leaving everyone high and dry.

Its an excellent argument and to ignore it is nothing short of stupid.

parad0x360

Oh sure. DRM is fine. Nothing to worry about. What could possibly go wrong?

From: Walmart Music Team
Date: Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 7:42 PM
Subject: Important Information About Your Walmart.com Digital Music Purchases
To: xxxxxx@gmail.com
Important Information About Your Digital Music Purchases

We hope you are enjoying the increased music quality/bitrate and the improved usability of Walmart's MP3 music downloads. We began offering MP3s in August 2007 and have offered only DRM (digital rights management) -free MP3s since February 2008. As the final stage of our transition to a full DRM-free MP3 download store, Walmart will be shutting down our digital rights management system that supports protected songs and albums purchased from our site.

If you have purchased protected WMA music files from our site prior to Feb 2008, we strongly recommend that you back up your songs by burning them to a recordable audio CD. By backing up your songs, you will be able to access them from any personal computer. This change does not impact songs or albums purchased after Feb 2008, as those are DRM-free.

Beginning October 9, we will no longer be able to assist with digital rights management issues for protected WMA files purchased from Walmart.com. If you do not back up your files before this date, you will no longer be able to transfer your songs to other computers or access your songs after changing or reinstalling your operating system or in the event of a system crash. Your music and video collections will still play on the originally authorized computer.

Thank you for using Walmart.com for music downloads. We are working hard to make our store better than ever and easier to use.

Walmart Music Team

grangerfx

iTunes gives you 5 machines, unlimited iPods. iTunes costs .99 cents a song. iTunes provides for fast and easy authorize/deauthorize cycle. iTunes lets you buy and get it instantly. Your typical boxed DRM product is $50. Your typical boxed DRM product is a pain in the ass to deauthorize and has fewer installs. Your typical DRM product requires getting up off our ass and going to a store or waiting a few hours for electronic delivery. Your typical DRM boxed product sells worse than iTunes... shocking. Take away a few of those inconveniences and you have Steam, which is rather more successful.

ElReyMysterioso-PBUH

the key thing is that the second people stop making a big deal about it, that's when they know they can start getting away with even stricter and stricter methods. it's a consumer's rights thing, and studios don't need the guy from penny arcade defending them...not that the guy's a typical consumer.

of course, if you didn't have things like people here gloating about how they never pay for games unless they're "ones I like" the studios probably wouldn't have started doing this in the first place.

Mikintosh

He's right not all DRM is bad.

Anything worse then Stardock's DRM is bad though.
(Don't kid yourselves, Stardock DOES have DRM, but it's non-customer annoying DRM, and that's the standard)

The way I look at it, if someone downloads from a torrent site a game they bought legally, that is perfectly honorable and I would not punish someone for it even if it was illegal.

That said, rootkit DRM won't go away unless people stop buying those games. I also find activation that takes an excessive amount of time bad as well (Steam and it's 30 secs to verify)

I've just decided I'm not buying games anymore with DRM I dislike. I'll stuck to Impulse and certain Gamersgate games. (I won't even use Steam)

arstal

If you're careful on itunes, you can avoid DRM. But music has one things games don't: the analog hole. Easy enough to break the DRM out.

HikariOblivion

@mva5580: Console games have DRM already. Digital ones at least.

Xbox 360: One reactivation per year, tied to system or (online) account.

Wii: No reactivations, tied to system

PS3: 5 reactivations, tied to system

HikariOblivion

@joeloliol: Yeah, exactly, and all this attempted legislation on DRM workarounds isn't helping.

At this rate, we're all gonna be leaking money like a bad faucet in a few years.

HikariOblivion

@mva5580: The only crybaby I see here is you constantly complaining about consoles and pirates.

Narishma

@Kazzahdrane: How would you classify the person who pirated a game then bought said game because s/he loved it and would have never otherwise bought it if it wasn't pirated?

Pacifist Pirate Nyo

jump a few years down the line... does it become more or less likely that you'll be able to still play your DRM game, as compared with a non-DRM game.

thats where my problem with it lies.

i don't want the game i payed full price for to "expire"

joeloliol

@mva5580: First of all, you make no sense, like at all. I don't need to try to explain why.

Second of all, even if it would somehow make sense or be possible for console games to have the "same type" of DRM, why in the flying hell would you wish for that to happen?

You basically just said: I wish that console piracy gets as bad as PC piracy so that publishers are forced to use incredibly horrible DRM that will surely destroy the industry faster than the piracy it supposedly stops.

If you hate video games so much, why are you even reading this website?

dowingba

This is the side I've been on all along. With all of that spore nonsence, it seemed like a few people had good reason to be mad, but then being mad at the DRM became a fad. I just don't believe that most of the people that got pissed would have ever seen the effects of spore's DRM. (The majority of people that got mad said that it was because they re-install windows every few months, so they could only keep playing spore for about a year. Who would play spore for more than a year, seriously.)

@Atheist Jew:
What exactly is keeping you from playing them, the restriction of more than three activations?

Indypunk

Bah, above post was a response to a specific post, not the OP.

Chris Remo's article makes no sense. How can he say we overreacted when our reaction is EXACTLY WHAT GOT US THE FIXES?

If there was no reaction, securerom would become the standard on every single PC game. It would only get worse from there.

Seeing this kind of "over-reaction" as Chris calls it is what will make other companies NOT use securerom.

Qix213

And in two years or so, we'll be hearing about more and more people complaining about how they can no longer install Spore because their computers kept messing up. All because EA pulled the "support" plug a year after the game went out and didn't (as they claim they were going to do) release a patch to remove their "copy protection".

Rctdaemon

Thank you! I completely agree, so much so that i posted a huge comment on the PA forums yesterday about this.

Qix213

Yeah, you know what? I would not call it overreacting, Chris Remo. Know why? Because I bought both Spore and Crysis Warhead, and due to EA's DRM, I can't actually play either of my legit copies. I'm forced to consider actually pirating two games I already fucking own so that I can circumnavigate the pointless, worthless, and completely ineffectual DRM so I can play the games.

And you're saying I shouldn't be pissed off about that? I'm a staunch supporter of the PC as a gaming platform, but this kind of ridiculous idiocy that actually forces paying customers to pirate the games they've purchased is a reason for anger if I've ever seen one.

Atheist Jew

@Kocrachon:

As far as Spore goes, I had planned to install it on ONE PC. But I have a fundamental disagreement with EA about DRM and their use of SECUROM.

So I haven't installed the game at all. In my case, they simply lost a sale. I would like to play the game, but I don't want to have to steal it to play it and I will not buy it with the DRM it has on it.

Were they to release it on STEAM, I may change my mind about that. But that won't matter because that will never happen.

shizknight

@parad0x360: Your point is invalid, by that logic you shouldn't lock your doors, because someone could kick it in. You shouldn't lock your car, because someone could use a slim jim and take it anyway. If someone is motivated enough to take something from you, they will find a way. The reason you lock things up is because it is a deterrent to potential thieves, the classic example of the path of least resistance. If you have two of the exact same cars on a street, one locked, one unlocked, guess which one will disappear..

DRM in its current form sucks ass, but it is in response to the piracy that is killing the pc industry. Everyone who is pissed the fuck off about DRM doesn't need to complain to the developers/publishers, they need to bitch out those people around them who are stealing software.

Those are the people (and I know a few) who have caused this mess. There is no difference between DRM and stores that lock up product and force you to wait for someone to come and let you buy it. The minority has ruined it for the majority, and until that outrage gets focused on the right offender, things will not change, may even get worse. Pissed off about Spore? Go punch the guy you know who brags about having it 3 days early in the face.. and then kick him. What the Fuck do people think? My buddy is jacking software left and right, but now I can only play my game on 5 PCs? Holy Shit! FU PUBLISHER! Stupid.

negativexer0

@mva5580:
Would you consider the XBox Live mass-banning for modded consoles a form of DRM control? Because, really, other than installation validation (we're a bit far away for full installs to be the norm on consoles), that's all that can really be done right now. Besides, it's not like you can copy a 360 disc and have it work on an unmodded 360.

stupid_mcgee

@Qix213:

This guy is spewing a load of crap. This is the kind of twaddle that is normally ripped apart by Gabe and Tycho on Penny Arcade. He comes off sounding like he works for EA and is just spouting the company line. I would not be surprised to hear that this is a kind of viral response from EA.

Qix213

@Atheist Jew: Also, my condolences. I actually ran process explorer the other day to check why my computer was acting up and I actually hesitated thinking, "hmm...if I run this program, I will need to reboot my computer before I can run a lot of my games...fucking great." I also had a battle trying to get the original Crysis to run on a brand new computer that it claimed was running emulation software.

Joebob-X

@Indypunk: So what, are you now analyzing atheist jew's problem to let him know that he's wrong and that he can play his game? This isn't a fad, it has been a problem for the past few years. Starforce caused big problems, sony cd's had their rootkit, securom has its terrible behavior. This isn't overreacting, this is protecting our investments and our systems from obtrusive malware. If you don't understand the problem, you probably shouldn't be calling everyone crybabies, as seems to be the other "fad" right now.

Joebob-X

@ramenite: Simply brilliant!

Ajh

@mva5580:

Arwe you serious? How can you agree with this guy? Chris's article makes no sense. His uses the 'fixes' we got from the 'over-reaction' as a reaosn we should not have 'over-reacted'.

And he does not even mention the bad thigns secure rom can and does do to your computer!

The more people that agree with this bull the more I seathing hatred I have for the article

Qix213

I have never, ever had a problem with DRM. I'm not saying that problems don't exist, but I'd be willing to bet that 98% of all "DRM messes up your computer!" posts are just from people trying to "fight the man" rather than actual, personal experiences.

Could DRM be handled better? Yes! Oh, by the gods, yes! However, the problem with PC gaming is that it's on the PC. Microsoft can ban Live accounts that have modded 360s to try and cut down on piracy, Sony could probably do the same thing, but the PC cannot.

Which leaves the big problem: if DRM doesn't really work (though it does some people, just go read some torrent comments sometime for a chuckle of how clueless some people are) then how do devs and publishers ensure their product isn't stolen? Is Steam the answer? No, they've managed to crack Half-Life 2 and nearly every other Steam game. SecuROM and the others don't work. The "have no DRM" method is foolish, as it's just an open invitation to for-profit pirates to rip the discs and sell them as perfectly functional copies. (and don't give me that that Solar Empire stuff, I'm talking big budget games like Bioshock, which would get massively taken advantage of by pirates)

Is there an answer? Sort of. Make all games online dependent. That is the only way. Even then you have cracked servers, like for WoW. But, of course, these servers are mediocre shadows of how the game should be. Perhaps the era of great single player games for the PC is quickly fading, to be replaced with an entire field of online-only games such as Left 4 Dead and the plethora of MMOs.

stupid_mcgee

Do what you want 'cause a Pirate is free! You are a Pirate!

Comeback209

My only question is how far this thing will go. Even if they can somehow take DRM off (Which I know will never happen, it's only going to escalate), how long until they say "Put games online and ditch discs so everyone has access" or "Make Halo 3 for PC $10 so even the money-less preteens can play"?

NeonLight

What happened to the good old days, when no one knew they could pirate something?

DukeOfPwn

@stupid_mcgee: So you think that regardless of what PC game I purchase, single player or not, I should be required to sign up for an account, have an active internet connection at all times, and depend on the the publisher always having that server up at all times even after the game is no longer profitable for me to play the game I purchased? Wow, that's a great alternative. If the no DRM thing is not feasible then why is the music industry going in that direction with amazon, walmart, and other retailers going drm free only? Dismissing stardock is unfair to them as they have a decent selling game on PC and have actually pulled in other companies to Impulse, most notably Gas Powered Games, and CD Projekt is doing a great experiment with GOG.com. I think these people have the ability to do even greater things and the biggest hurdle at this point is that they lack the same initial financial backing as companies like EA and Take Two. If they get the advertising money they could do even better. Also, Stardock does tie games to an account for updates, which gives them control over that aspect of piracy.

Joebob-X

@Falsoman: "It also doesn't cripple your optical drive, or your software debugers if you are a programer" This is my problem with securom or.

DRM I don't care about, activation I don't care about, limited installs I don't care about (provided there is some method of re-activation), hell, I don't even care if the program prevents certain other programs from running while the protected game is running.

But when you start putting stuff on my computer that 1. you don't tell me about and 2. DOESN'T stop running when I close the program... you best settle your affairs.

Zegridathes

@negativexer0: @negativexer0:

It may be a response to rampant piracy, but it's a stupid, unprofitable response, and is therefore irrational.

Stardock went no-DRM not because of any altruism on their part. They did it because they saw it as a way to increase profits. Brad Wardell even admits that he's not out to be a good guy as much as he trying to maximize his profits, and that he decided the best way to maximize profits was to be a good guy.

It's worked, Galciv II made 8-digit profit. Pretty sure Sins made them 8-digits of profit as just the publisher. As long as companies can make profit off of PC games, PC games will continue to be made. There's no chance of the industry dying due to piracy as long as that is true. The fact that Stardock makes such a good return on their investment (GC2's cost to make was about $1 mil, so it had at least 1000% profit), there is no need for us to worry about piracy, just shitty DRM. (Again, not all DRM is shit, but EA's is)

Ultimately, profit is how the score is kept.

arstal

I just bought Monster Madness for the PC, and the only way I could get the thing to run was by installing a No-CD crack. THANKS SECU-ROM!

Call us whiners if you want, but the game would literally crash-to-desktop no matter what I did, UNTIL I by-passed SecuROM with a No-CD fix. As a paying customer, nothing makes me more angry than this.

IT'S OBVIOUSLY NOT WORKING.
The software pirates have NO PROBLEM bypassing your sad, pathetic, ineffective DRM. The only one it inconveniences is the paying consumer.
STOP.
STOP USING DRM. STOP IT. IT IS NOT THE SOLUTION.

mistersneak

@DukeOfPwn:
They never existed.

People used to have swap parties, or would copy the games and just give them to friends. Of course, the copy protection was much different then. Back in the day you had to look on page W, paragraph X, sentence Y, word Z and enter it. If you wanted to circumvent, you'd have to photocopy the manual. That method wouldn't work at all today, people would just scan the manual and distribute it as aPDF with the ripped ISO.

stupid_mcgee

It's not overreacting. Your Fair Use and First-Sale rights are being taken away not by government, but by corporations. Who said they get to be dictator? I didn't elect them.

Kral2

@stupid_mcgee: I'd call it anti-cheating attempt that isn't too well thought out.

arstal

@Joebob-X:
No. I never said that's the way things should be, please don't put words in my mouth. My post was more of pondering the point. How do developers protect their games? Especially games which are beginning to cost a ton more than they used to and will soon rival movies for production budgets. And I'm not talking about online validation, I'm talking about no single player games on the PC at all. None. That is the only way I can see games being successfully protected from piracy. Even then, there are workarounds, but they are immensely more difficult than current methods.

The reason why I dismissed Solar Empires is because 1) It was a small market game. Not as many people were as interested in it as were in something like Bioshock. 2) It had a much smaller production budget, making recouping costs much easier. The can get in the black with selling much fewer titles.

Finally, comparing games to music piracy is really apples to oranges. Musicians get most of their money from touring. Even the big ones like Metallica get way, way much more from tours than album sales. Which means that even if they lose money from CD sales due to no DRM, they can still recoup costs. There is no such available alternative for games. None whatsoever. What is 2K Boston going to do if their game gets pirated to hell and back? Go out and give speeches?

stupid_mcgee

DRM is flawed, especially for music. There should be a way to deactive your music or videos having them deleted all together through a central server. In bioshock I think uninstalling killed one of your activations which helps.

In the end though all of these "limiting" measures on retrieving content you might of lost only hurts the people who buy the product. Those people who might rebuy the product if lost... and there is where they see $$.

That being said there is a limit to what copy protection can do. There will never be anything that works, people will always break stuff.

ninjikiran

@stupid_mcgee: As I pointed out, the stardock games are smaller market, but that doesn't mean they don't show that they can be successful without heavy handed drm. If anything, piracy should affect them more because each lost copy is a larger portion of their sales. Also, while artists get most of their money from touring, it's the companies that release their albums that depend on that money. They wouldn't be conceding to non drm services if they didn't think it was going to make them more money. If every album put out on AmazonMP3 sold ten copies, they would pull the plug quickly. Obviously, that isn't the case. 2K Boston already has a game that is pirated to hell and back, what they are relying on is the honest customers who will buy their game regardless, and those are the customers that they should be encouraging and advertising heavily to. Which, by the way, is what they did with all of their advertising and all of the community stuff they did on their website for so long leading up to their very successful release.

Joebob-X

And again it becomes painfully obvious that nobody actually bothered to read the entire essay.

Besides criticizing gamers for making a big deal out of a policy that barely affects them, this Chris Remo guy also bashes publishers (EA among them) for equipping their software with ineffective DRM measures, which only encourage forum zealots.

Now, I don't like DRM. I avoid iTunes in favor of Amazon. I have had repeated technical problems with both Mass Effect and Spore (neither of which I played longer than a few weeks after the initial purchase). However, it is quite true that gamers are a volatile bunch, overreacting to every perceived slight (real or imagined). Every time someone criticizes gaming or gamers (see Jack Thompson, Glenn Beck and their ilk), the community responds as vehemently as to a threat of physical violence. This exaggerated reaction propagates the negative stereotype that gamers are immature, socially incompetent and (dare I say it) dangerous. That's particularly sad, considering how easy it is to avoid. Think first, then act.

Good grief, it's just common sense.

schizosid

All I want is for my games not to have ****ing activation programs BUNDLED IN WITH THEM. I don't care if a game requires a 1 time internet activation and the activation server keeps track of the number of copies I have installed. I just want my games without extra installs that will linger like adware on my computer, because that is totally disgusting and not acceptable to me.

Quine

The reason his view is not popular is because he's simply towing the industry line and telling us to bend over more. He cares more about his precious PC gaming than he does about his own rights as a consumer. That's his choice of course, but to me people like that more part of the problem than they are part of the solution.

MattB

@ZeroBlade:

On top of that, you have your choice of markets. You could use iTunes, or you could use Napster, or you could just go out and buy the CD.

Music doesn't work as a good example because music has multiple forms of purchases, thus if you don't like DRM, there are other sources to choose from.

rabidkeebler

@Joebob-X:
Also, I don't know how tue this is, but people did post on various forums that they bought Solar Empire specifically because it did not have DRM. Some claimed that they never even intended to play the game, but they wanted to support a publisher that was willing to take a stance against DRM schemes. I don't personally know anyone that did that, but there were a decent handful of posts saying such.

stupid_mcgee

No no no no, cut the crap, I'm-saying-the-opposite-so-I-am-cool-journalists!

"Realistically, how much more do you need?"

You know, that quote... sucks. It could be right out of gaming biz douche-central in the EA headquarters. With all respect to Chris Remo- saying that is ignorant and ridicules a very honest and righteous claim.

EA wouldn't have moved their asses one millimetre if it wasn't for people "bitching". Now that they are merely announcing to change their DRM policies to the MINIMUM, I would consider appropriate for a $70 game (yea, I live in Europe), he basically says "Hush, hush... you got your minimum fairness, now STFU and be ashamed for bitching".

This IS a balanced discussion. People are bringing good counter-examples (Steam, Stardock, non-digital industries) and it paints an (objectively) bad picture for over-the-top DRM and SecuROM in particular. And if it wasn't for people "bitching", nothing would change.

So don't be so smug about bringing "the opposite side" to the discussion. EA is simply wrong. And they're living the PR debacle they deserve.

People SHOULD bitch- about the fact that they HAD to bitch in the first place to get a faird deal. And that kind of bitching is just starting. No company seems to have learned a thing. Or how else do you explain the "gamers reselling their own games hurts our multi-billion-dollar industry" claims?

lumpi

@negativexer0:

A better way to put it is this.

You have a bank. Recently, the bank has been going through a rash of break ins from the back door. In response to this, if you want to do business with the bank, you have to be given a strip and cavity search to make sure you aren't going to be taking their money.

On the other hand, the back door is never fixed, and people still have the ability to break in every time the bank trucks stop to give the bank money.

In other words, all of this "security" amounts to nothing more than a heaping load of dog turds for all legitimate users. If EA and others some how come up with a form of non intrusive, non breaking DRM software then I think all would be okay. But our rights are continually being squashed for the sake of a few extra sales.

rabidkeebler

@Joebob-X:
Are there better methods than current DRM? I'm sure there are, and I should be clear that I don't like rootkits or any of that other nonsense on my computer either. It's an even bigger concern because I don't own a single console that's newer than a an old-school model PS1, so nearly all gaming I do is on the PC.

Could/would Stardock work for a really big time, ultra hyped AAA title? I honestly don't know, nor do I pretend to. I will say that I have concerns over how effective it would be against piracy. But, on the other hand, it's not like Starforce or any other scheme (including Steam) is actually doing a good job of protecting games. The byproduct of current DRM is unhappy customers, occasionally broken hardware (though I suspect it happens much less frequently than forums postings would have you believe, but who really knows...), and a scheme that publishers have to pay for that doesn't work! It's like paying for home security that only works if intruders try to sneak in through the chimney. They can still get in a billion other ways.

It would be interesting if a big-time publisher would use Stardock for a few releases just to gauge how well sales were. I don't think Steam can always be the answer, as online verification screws over those that don't have internet access, though I guess publishers consider that number to minimal. Will we ever have games without DRM? Maybe. But as long as people keep stealing/copying/cracking these games, big-time developers and publishers are going to keep trying to protect their property from massive theft.

stupid_mcgee

@sahchandler: Well said and I agree. It is about freedom. I still buy almost all of my music on CDs. If I do buy from iTunes it will only be iTunes Plus tracks which are DRM free. If they did the same for games I would always go for the DRM-free version.

MattB

In my mind, the very biggest problem of all this DRM is that it doesn't even come close to doing what it's supposed to. We always hear from heads of the industry that "Piracy is a big problem, and we have to take measures to combat it." DRM like SecuRom and StarForce is said to be that measure, but does it stop piracy?

NO.

Reliably, within a week of any game's release and quite often much sooner, anyone can go to any of the well-known pirating sites and download said game, free of any anti-piracy measures. Meanwhile, paying customers have to deal with limited activations on servers that may or may not continue running in the coming years. Will this be a problem for most customers? Probably not. Will it be a problem for pirates? Definitely not. Pirates don't have to worry about this, and are getting a product with less hassle. And the fabled "casual pirate" can get it just as easily. It's a simple two clicks away.

If this DRM is supposed to stop piracy, and it doesn't, then why is it still being used?

Unknown-User

Personally I disagree with Chris. While iTunes is one of the most popular ways to buy music, it comes stricken with DRM, and still not everyone buys through iTunes, in fact some people still like to buy good ole CDs. But that's the point. We have the choice to buy the DRM version or one without it. And while I may end up paying more money in the long run, I will always choose a physical copy over a digital download for music. Unless I have that RIGHT NOW feeling. In which case I use the Zune marketplace, which while using a proprietary format for nearly everything, doesn't come with DRM enabled (as far as I can tell). But it's all about choice, or the freedom of rather. Something that DRM restricts, in my opinion.

Were publishers to start charging more for a boxed copy rather than a digital download I think you could definitely see a choice. Pay more money for something not restricted, Buy it it cheaper through something restrictive. Or pirate it, because you know, people are dicks. Or College students. Or both.

I'm looking at you Arizona State University.

sahchandler

@MattB:
Or maybe because he realizes it's not a black and white issue, that there are rights to be respected on both sides, and that DRM is slippery slope where there has never been any clear answers.

How would you like to work for a developer that's going under, had to shelf a great title, would like to but cannot afford to expand, or had to lay off employees/slash benefits, salaries, etc. and then browse on over to a torrent site and see thousands of people each and every day stealing something you and your co-workers worked so hard to make? It's not just consumer rights that's the issue, it's also the rights of the devs and publishers to protect their product.

Maybe the solution is for devs and publishers to instead of paying Starforce, pay a wing of the ESA to sue those that illegally download games, threaten torrent sites, and to petition others to remove game torrents. I imagine there would still be backlash from that, too. The RIAA isn't exactly viewed all that favorably.

stupid_mcgee

@kagai: Not in the UK, sadly!

Kazzahdrane

@parad0x360: Absolutely, I agree with you in principle. My comment was directed solely at Steam, where Valve have said time and time again that they will do something to strip Steam sales of DRM if the service should ever go south. Of course, how likely that is to be at the top of the agenda if Valve should close shop I don't know, but I like to think they've earned my trust in the last 10 years.

This is the main reason I've opted not to go buying full games from lots of different providers, and am really interested in seeing how GoG.com fares!

Kazzahdrane

You have to pick your battles. There's no way EA is going to do away with DRM...it just isn't going to happen anytime soon.

We we have to meet them midway. For me...midway is 5 installs plus the uninstall reclaim tool. The uninstall tool is an absolute must for me. Sure I'd like more...but I look at the situation...what I've experienced with Mass Effect...and I ask myself...does this system eliminate or at least drastically reduce the issues I've had with Mass Effect. I believe it does. I've only used 5 installs for Mass Effect and that was with a major system upgrade and troubleshooting associated with it. With the uninstall tool reclaim ability I would only have used up 1 install as I could have uninstalled each time. So for me...that little bit of ground they gave up was enough to satisfy my concerns.

Pick your battles people...they've given up enough ground for now.

thor79

@negativexer0: "Your point is invalid, by that logic you shouldn't lock your doors, because someone could kick it in. You shouldn't lock your car, because someone could use a slim jim and take it anyway."

This is not a good analogy. You lock your doors, because most people can't pick locks and don't want to be reported by the neighbors. You lock your car and take the keys, because most people don't know how to break in and hotwire it.

It does not follow to put stifling DRM on a game, that most people know how to avoid. (In reality, it only takes a few people to crack it. Then it's available to every "casual pirate" to download free of any DRM.)

Unknown-User

@rabidkeebler: Absolutely, I completely see where you're coming from. I just personally disagree - I think stealing (or copyright infringement, whatever you want to call it) to prove a point is just pathetic, and is just an excuse.

But that's just me, and I'm well aware plenty of people don't see it that way and they're not evil ;)

N.B. I'm assuming your reply was about people pirating games because they refuse to play ball with the DRM involved, wasn't quite sure so sorry if I got the wrong end of the stick. I think it's better to protest and say "Hey Will Wright, your new game might be great but I'm not going to find out until EA stop being jerks!" rather than point out how you simply didn't pay.

Kazzahdrane

@Pacifist Pirate Nyo: More of a grey area, but I still think pirating games in order to "try" them doesn't cut it. There are plenty of places to rent games fairly cheaply, and if the argument is that they can't afford to go renting games to see if they like them then perhaps they should do what most people do and get word-of-mouth reviews from friends, or failing that websites/magazines?

I'm just jaded, see too many people who pirate games and claim it's just to find gems they'd otherwise not play when in fact they're just cheap bastards.

Kazzahdrane

@ShirtGuyDom:

EA doesn't.

rabidkeebler

@Kazzahdrane:

Gotta disagree. It is a valid form of dissent, basically saying you could have had my sale, now you don't. It's the equivalent of a double whammy. Not only do people not pay for a product, but they are actively stating that they would have payed for a product but because of DRM.

The major problem is that the game industry (and music, and movies, and tv, and etc.) want to gain 100% of the money, or in other words they distribute 1 million copies, they want 1 million copies worth of pay back.

But this doesn't work. The industries panic when a small percentage (2% maybe) starts to steal their products. So they create these behemoth products or ideas to stop it, which only places pressure on the regular consumer.

rabidkeebler

@Kazzahdrane:

There's a flaw in that argument YOU CAN'T RENT PC GAMES DUE TO THE DRM!!! crysis warhead is a good example of this back in the day we used to have demo's so we could at least get some idea/feel for the game now we get nothing why because either game devs/publisher are soo god damn afraid of failing or are worried we won't fall for their bullshit hype and buy their dud game. There's only so much a friend, magazine or website can tell you about a game again still doesn't compare to trying it out! most opinions of games are biased and over hyped in my experience

Piracy is a overused excuse in the video game world its not that simple its part of the problem but not the whole picture

HitokiriX

@lumpi: Doesn't seem to hurt book sellers....this whole used book thing you know?

Ajh

@thor79:
I don't even think it's that we need to pick and choose out battles as much as we need to understand their viewpoint as well and attempt to try some form of consensus. Find a middle ground that can work for both parties, because this isn't a perfect world and some people will continue to steal games as long as they possibly can. This "all or nothing" approach is unreasonable and only ensures that nothing ever gets done. It's not just about you and me, not just about the consumers, not just about the devs and publishers. It's about all of use trying to respect each others' rights regarding this media and working to make things as best as can be for all involved, not just for one particular side of the issue.

stupid_mcgee

@Kocrachon: No, I'm sorry, but it doesn't work, for the simple reason that DRM is not unbreakable. I have played quite a few DRM-loaded games which I refused to buy because of that. Once a crack was released, I just asked some fanatic friend for the game and played without consuming their activations.
And now that they are allowing de-activations, even re-selling is possible. These DRM schemes serve no purpose whatsoever.

EloraHRanma

@stupid_mcgee: I do work for a software development company, and one that has not always has a favourable balance sheet either. I'd argue this actually is a black and white issue because DRM has absolutely no effect on internet piracy at all. It's simply anti-consumer behaviour.

I'm all for the industry going after pirates rather than their own customers, but it's worth pointing out that from a technical perspective torrent sites aren't really that much different from google in the way they work. Should we get rid of google because they provide a way to find a page offering Spore downloads?

MattB

@Fozziedave: This is indeed something that is very important to note. The iTunes comparison wasn't a good one, a VERY different case of DRM.

neoyaku

@grangerfx: And that's third major DRM systems that have gone done, with only one of them (Yahoo, I think), offering free (as free beer) DRM-free (as freedom of speech) replacements for the DRM tracks the client had bought.

When will people realize that any remote activation system is subject to this and means future problems for sure? Yeah, Bioshock will get a patch to not require activation if the servers ever go done, but then you'll have to rely on the web page holding the patch to remain active, or look all around the World Wide Web for it.
I know how it feels: I've had to do similar things for older games, published by companies now defunct, even though no one thought that was possible at the time (Sierra, anyone?).

EloraHRanma

@404mistake: Same here DRM on iTunes is exactly why i don't have an ipod

knails

I don't complain about it just to complain. My complaints are pretty straightforward:
- I will not tolerate spyware or other dubious undisclosed activities on my system as a result of installing software.
- The game must be able to install and run without ever connecting to the internet. I may want to install this on a virtual machine in 10 years, you never know.
- Must not impact game performance (some have!)

The terms are constant... if more and more publishers choose to be assholes about it, I'm not going to take it just because it's moving toward being the norm.

fuchikoma

@Indypunk: Well, following your logic, there would be a small chance that I or someone close to me died in a gunshot, should possession of fire arms be approved in my country, so they should be allowed.
Know what? The problem is not how possible it is that you will be affected by DRM restrictions; what is important is that there IS such a possibility, even if you are a legitimate customer. When it is your turn it sucks, I can tell you.

EloraHRanma

@Joebob-X: Please, allow me to get into the band-wagon, but because of Tages. I bought Stalker: Clear Sky last week and the stupid Tages made the DVD unreadable 4 out of every five times I wanted to play, so I have to run the game with a crack. This is one of the most stupid things I've ever seen.
And when the new patch is released on Monday, I'll have to wait until it is cracked again before being able to play a game I payed 40€ for.

All these security measures are pointless and only lead to frustrated consumers, which leads to not-buying consumers, which leads to a new ET-like catastrophe in PC gaming. Publishers, recover a bit of common sense before it is too late.

EloraHRanma

@Unknown-User: I want to point out the only mistake I found in your post. There have been games that took more than a week to pirate. As far as I know, only three: Splinter Cell: Pandora Tomorrow (4-6 months, holding the record), Bioshock (2 weeks) and Alone In The Dark 5 (1 month? I'm not sure, I didn't pay much attention).

So protection schemes work for a considerable period (more than the supposedly critic first week) in... 0.001% of the games which carry it? Yeah, keep the good work.

P.S.: As I wrote in another post, re-selling and lending are not affected by these practices, since de-authorization tools and cracks do the work just fine.

EloraHRanma

@knails:

Because you cant put any MP3 from any source into itunes and put it on an ipod.....

Nesagwa

"It looks like we're at five activations per game now, up from three; that's unlimited installs on each of five PCs"

NO IT'S NOT. It's 5 (up for 3 but still way too constrictive for something you should OWN) times youre allowed to upgrade or change components in ONE computer before your game becomes dead.

The reason there's not as much outrage over iTunes is because gamers are by & large a more informed audience. If the people who used iTunes werent swayed by the pop-ness & had their eyes opened to alternatives they would move to those alternatives.

string_theory

This guy is an utter moron like the EA overlords. Having an uninstallable piece of malicious software run a muck and cripple your hardware deserves every bit of this response. Hopefully the class action lawsuit will make them finally realize it's the damn rootkit and not the number of installs that are the problem.

Kickers

@Unknown-User: Even though you disagree, you still make my point. Most people do not know how to do such things, and likewise, most people do not know how to crack software. Also, there is no fear of a "neighbor" reporting them, because, by and large, we just chuckle and let it go. The mentality of the gaming public needs to change before this gets better, those that steal, however they justify it, should be the outcasts of this demographic. They should not be accepted as part of the "norm."

negativexer0

@rabidkeebler: You say the backdoor is not fixed, so how would you repair it? What if you were a loyal customer of the bank and didn't want to switch, and knew that your friend/neighbor was one of those responsible for the backdoor thievery? Would you confront them then, or just complain about having to spread your cheeks?

negativexer0

@arstal: You are right, but GCII is an exception, and you are talking about a smaller (volume-wise) game. If Stardock was responsible for a large AAA title that cost more than $1m to develop, I would be willing to bet that the DRM would come into play. I work in retail, and we have a budget for expected loss. Smaller items get less scrutiny, because we loose less. If a title is expected to move 100k units, 10% piracy costs less than a title that moves 10m units.

Also, there is a line, a 100k title can't afford to piss off the same amount of people with DRM that a 10m will, and GCII figured that out.

negativexer0

@shizknight:

Clearly you aren't up to date on things. PC Games have a weak resell market. Game stores stopped taking them for trade ins years ago, and try selling a used PC Game online. You'll get barely anything back for it. So how is the PC resale market hurting them? The DRM in Spore doesn't effect anyone, it's just another reason for people to bitch.

Oldboy26

I don't mind DRM.

I mind DRM when it @#$@#'s with my OS.

The consumer has spoken. Sony's earlier DRM on their Audio CDs, and the previous versions of the current DRM on SPORE...

...they were both criminal, and they were not the least bit apologetic about it.

As a consumer, I'm making my choice.

dcartist

@negativexer0: "Your point is invalid, by that logic you shouldn't lock your doors, because someone could kick it in."

It's more like, if the thieves have the keys to your house, why lock the doors?

In that analogy I don't know how you'd prevent the thieves from just coming in. In the game world though you could, and probably should, try to have an online aspect of the game that makes people want to use your online features.

DRM doesn't do anything to prevent people from pirating a game. You don't have to know how to crack a game. All you have to know is how to copy and paste. Hint: Ctrl+C,Ctrl+V

TeknoVagrant

@negativexer0: I would venture to say that most gamers know how to find and use pirated versions of games, even if they don't do it.

Unknown-User

@thor79: I'd at least fight for 5 installs, reclaim tool (that also allows us to reclaim from a different system in case of catastrophic failure), AND assurance that if the authentication server ever goes down, all need for authentication is eradicated.

I'd still not be HAPPY about it, but it'd be better than nothing.

Unknown-User

@EloraHRanma: A point I meant to make was this: If these are being used primarily to stop re-selling, etc, then at least be honest about it. The current DRM schemes do so little to stop piracy, telling us that's what it's for just pisses us off even more.

Unknown-User

@stupid_mcgee: Actually, funny that you mention it, no DRM was a major selling point for me on Sins. I wanted the game anyway, as I liked homeworld, but the no DRM and $40 price point totally pushed me to buy. This is also pretty late, but I really agree with you on the whole thing about bigger companies taking a chance with Stardock. I think GPG with Demigod is an example of that, even though they aren't a real massive developer. I think what will happen if DRM goes in decline is that people will see