Toilets and objects submerged in piss have been classified as art -- why not videogames too?

YHWHMystic

You got my Mucha art sideways...

Poison

Games as art?

Team Fortress 2, nuff said.

Spidery_Yoda

Some games try to be art, some don't.

Is EPIC MOVIE art? I don't think that while games have to be panned as "mindless entertainment", movies all have to be elevated in the "art" statute.

Ashurahori

This is getting tiring to the point that I would probably never use the word "art" to describe anything again. I mean, the term doesn't really apply anymore, does it? I believe that the idea of "art" was probably developed by the Romantics, who really felt what they were doing was more important on an emotional and intellectual level. Depending on what geographical location we're talking about, Romanticism died somewhere around 250-400 years ago. Anything now can be considered media output: books, movies, Youtube videos, music, and, yes, video games are all on the same plain. We can argue the hell out of which is "better," but even that is a moot point.

I'm hereby never using the word "art" to describe anything ever again. I'm declaring it obsolete.

peAr nectAr

@QualityJeverage: Honestly, I have yet to see the videogame equivalent of Tarkovsky. Call me a pretentious snob if you must, but the only advantage games have at this point is interactivity. Granted, movies have been around for a whole century, so it's not that fair to compare, but still...

YHWHMystic

I did a ctrl+F on that article and the word "ICO" isn't mentioned. Therefore they have no idea what they're talking about.

dowingba

ugh this again. Look video games are art. the only reason this started was because some dumb film critic said games weren't art. Sucks to him! Games are art and one good reason is to compare it to the movi industry-which is considered art- Do you think Jackass: the movie and Epic Moive, and Scary Moive 1-2756 are art? Hell no! Same for games like: The guy game, Playboy Mansion, CHICKEN SHOOT! Those games are not art as well. But games like okami, shadow of the colossus, psychonauts, those games are all art. Same for as incredible moives like cassablanca, wizard of Oz, and many countless classics. Games are art, maybe developers are working more on the game aspect more than the art aspect, which is good, but balence is also important. MGS4 had a good balence between gameplay and art. Story, graphics, music. it was all there. So that why games are art.

Anitoon

@Spidery_Yoda:

Not quite. If you had said "Okami, nuff said." I would have agreed with you.

NeoAkira

@Ashurahori: My thoughts exactly. With all the mind-numbing movies coming out, how can anyone call movies art and not extend the same status to games?

QualityJeverage

speaking as an artist: too many people try to search for defining something as art by it's skill and style of execution. But this is not the case. DiVinci and my 5 year old nephew both create "art" one is just a better.

giovonti

The endless 'games as art' discussion is getting boring...

This is question asked aplenty even before games existed.
Here's a nice article about it called 'Thin Line Between Arts and Entertainment'.

xymor

As a lover of art and a lover of gaming, I'd actually be quite content if the words "games" and "art" were never used in the same sentence again. These discussions ultimately never touch any new bases.

futurebiblehero

I think it's really just a matter of time before games are considered art. 50 years ago, many would have claimed that Rock and Roll music was not art, but today it's pretty highly regarded. Of course it was a form of music, which was already considered art at the time.

That being said, you could say that video games are just the combination of a bunch of different forms of art. Music, Visual arts, writing, they're usually all present in some form. In the end though, I think it's pretty pointless to debate this now since, as I said before, what is and isn't art is usually decided by time.

Pickens

I dunno about the whole games are art debate. I believe that games, like all things, can have a subtler message beneath, look beautiful, inspire deep emotions, and isn't that what art is? A scene from a game can make as much a statement as a picture of something, can't it? Maybe even more, when you add in characters commentary, their point of view, and interaction with the scene.

But games that are specifically "art games"? I'm not so sure about that, MAYBE if the developers purposefully try and deliver a message, or recreate the things that normal art creates, responses messages etc. Even then, does a game have to be reclassifed entirely different because of this, as an art game?

Paintings, sculpture, things of that sort are easy to classify as art. Moving into post-modern though, many everyday things can be classified as art, if they get a message accross or evoke emotion. But games? Does GTA4 make a statement about immigration and our way of life? Does that make it an "art game"?

I think that there is a place for art in games, it's great to see something that is truly moving, and makes people feel things, whether it's a death, or character development. I know pretty much next to nothing about art, but I do know something beautiful when I see it, and something that really makes me think and feel. The same movement that there is into-post modern, finding art in every-day things, there might be a place for post-post modern, finding artistic statements in games.

Talleh

The word "Art" is a very obscure word with everyone having their own definition of it so that's probably why everyone gets in a fuss...

The seemingly more accepted definition of the word is probably when a game uses heavily stylized presentations that may or may not have relevance to it's functionality, where said presentations provoke thoughts beyond then what you need to know about a game. Very broad I know but that's the best I've understood about it.

As said, it depends on how you want to see it. Halo could be just as much art as Okami can be, they both simply utilize very different visuals and ideas. While yes there are games that are just poor in quality and downright uncompelling in both nature and execution.

I guess we just need a more defining point to what art means in the video game context.

Viguro

Shadow of The Colossus.

Anyone who claims that isn't "art" is a narrow minded fool.

Strife56

Games are art. Proofs follow:
The Last Express
Another World / Out of this Word / Outer World
Ico
Shadow of the Colossus.

There are others, but these are undeniable and not far from defining points in art history (Gioconda, Casablanca, Citizen Kane...).

EloraHRanma

@eternalsunshineofcoralfang: Because rednecks can't appreciate art?

dowingba

@peAr nectAr: being a fine artist myself I'd say I draw the line between intent. Most media output has the simple intent to generate profit, most art has the simple intent to declare a philosophical premise. At least that's how I keep in clear in my head. If I'm making a custom animation for a client to their qualifications I generally don't consider it a higher work of expression; it's a service I'm providing. If I work on something on my own, not really considering it's marketability than that's me exploring my outlook on life blah blah blah and I'm a high and fancy artist and I pull out my beret.

ExistentialEgg

not every game is art
when a redneck thinks the background of the level looks pretty, does it necessarily make it art? of course not
I think "art in gaming" has recently become a sad excuse for many people to claim that they know art and they know how to appreciate art, kinda pathetic, don't you think?

eternalsunshineofcoralfang

Please stop writing "games as art" implying that all games are not inherently art.

keith.burgun

Even a loud belch can be classified as art:

1) Burping is a human activity.
2) It requires some degree of skill to create.
3) The noise and smell elicits reactions from an audience -- it stimulates their senses and emotions.
4) It transmits ideas and rouses thoughts in our mind.

Art is such a vague word.

YHWHMystic

Is this really that important?

This is a debate that will go in circles forever, because "X is art" is based on opinion, and no one will ever agree on one set definition.

em

While anything can be art with the right argument, the general public has defined art already and it'll take some time to change those thoughts about what art is.

Personally I wouldn't be able to take a Donkey Kong cabinet seriously if it was displayed at the Met, but perhaps my descendants a thousand years from now will consider it a marvel of its time and move on to the next exhibit without a blink.

Pal

I seem to remember there being a special creature who thought eating tires while screaming art would make it so.
I liked Gonzo.

But that didn't mean that what he was doing was art, but the henson making gonzo do that.....
that was art.

I suppose it's all in the presentation.

ShinGetterPoPo

@Anitoon: the only reason this started was because some dumb film critic said games weren't art.

wrong. This was a debate before he made his comments. That just fueled it.

NoBullet

Shadow of the Colossus nuff said

mascot1063

I think the real issue here is that "art" is truly undefinable in the sense that it comes down to the person playing the game (read: subjective). I also believe that first-and-foremost the gaming industry is an entertainment industry.

For example, I could argue all day long that the Halo Universe and all of its vast story arcs (spanning, chronologically, from Contact Harvest, through all the games, to the end of Ghosts of Onyx) are some of the best works of science fiction ever created. To me, the Halo Universe is very "artsy." On the flip side, some people couldn't care less about the story and instead solely bought the Halo games (there are books?) to play online multiplayer.

I would say the universe created by Bungie is art. The people who buy the games for the multiplayer probably feel it is just a great action game.

I think we need to come to terms with the fact that the minds creating these games are creating entirely new universes for their games to take place in. The universes of Tamriel (for Morrowind and Oblivion), Sera (for Gears of War), Albion (for Fable), Hyrule (Legend of Zelda), Azeroth (Warcraft), the list goes on, are all created from the ground up for you to explore and learn more about. That sense of adventure in discovering what this new world is all about is what I think is "artsy" about games, not necessarily the gameplay.

Further, these universes have their own rules and when the developers stick to their guns, and keep to the continuity of these worlds, they become immersive and really begin to come alive. If you are viewing a game through those lenses then games are art for you. If you view a game as an avenue for entertainment then maybe those titles aren't art for you but still provide hours of worthwhile entertainment. There is nothing wrong with not having the opinion that a game is art to you.

My main point is this, many games can be taken as art if you wish to take them as such. To force people into thinking that all games are art is silly.

Ashurahori makes a great point. EPIC MOVIE is not art. It is entertainment. Mario Party is not art. It is entertainment. The Mario Universe, however? I would consider that to be art.

BuzzHonky

I for one totally agree that Shadow of The Colossus should be defined at art. However, what worries me is how people say its art and end their debate there. What is it that made you, the player, see that game at art? Was it the art direction? The pixil count?

Although I admit eye candy does help, I found the wordless narrative and story to be beautiful and touching. The fact that the story that literally said little but made me hear so much is what I thought was amazing.

But like many of you say, art is vague. I got many of the same emotions playing Link's Awakaing and FFX. Until we can even define what variables we see in games as art, games will just be another kids toy.

Evil_Monkeys

My little brother watches me play LoZ like it's a fairy tale. MGS4 has a beautiful, dramatic storyline. Battletoads is an epic tale of- okay, maybe that's going too far.

The enjoyment factor of games needs to be considered as part of the art form as well. If it's a fun game to play, it's done what it was made to do.

RyderJ

Gaming is a art?

Honestly, though, I think that the article gets one thing right that too many gamers fail to recognize:

Decoration is not art.

If you have basic, uninspired gameplay wrapped in beautiful, polygon-encrusted decorative backgrounds- that might not qualify as art. Outside our own community, at least, where it would get interesting.

We have to accept that the part of gaming that has a chance of really growing on the art sector, is what is unique to games: The interactivity, the idea of letting a player create his or her own experience within a set of intelligent rules that force us to explore certain actions in the game environment.

That is unique to gaming. Music, literature, film, theatre, painting, sculpture... those are all passive. They can be interpreted in a very personal way, but you're sitting in the audience and consume passively.

Gaming can teach us things about our selves, about our own actions and decisions. Mostly it's just about letting us "test reflexes" or "direct our own action film/soap opera". But you can go further than that. And this is where the whole discussion gets interesting. Games, for example, can not only tell a story, they can make us a part of it. Few games really manage to do that, but the possibility is certainly there. There is a lot room to grow.

Again, the blog that gives me confidence in the medium as an art form: [playthisthing.com] . There are things going on in the independent scene that are simply breathtaking.

lumpi

@EloraHRanma: OOTW and Shadow are great examples. I have not heard of Last Express and have yet to play ICO (please don't judge me too harshly)

Snowdaddy

@YHWHMystic: Thanks for making me choke on my drink. haha.

I wish I had more time to read all these great comments.

Snowdaddy

@dowingba: Agreed. I think the idea of art being an unapproachable medium saved for the scholars is a sad excuse for people who got pointless degrees to claim that that know art and know how to appreciate art.

Kinda pathetic, don't you think?

rivaldi22

@ExistentialEgg:

I definitely agree on intent being a factor. I also support having a definition of art that you take as your own. This is how everyone should do it. "Do I think it's art? Then it is art."

The one point on which I would differ is that of meeting client's qualifications. I feel that in designing a logo, creating art for a card game, or doing comic book covers for a children's TV program--all things I've done--one can still be making art. A different kind of art of course, but still art.

I don't think philosophical premises and art are mutually inclusive. I think aesthetics can play a role, as well.

HOWEVER, one can say that aesthetics, in itself, is a philosophical pursuit.

And now my brain is bored.

rivaldi22

Nothing and everything is art.
Especially in todays times you can call everything art(hell look at what people call modern art).
Its in the view of the person weither he/she agrees or not.

Chibirazi

Let me see here.

I thinkl this is gona bee the same peace of disscussion as the one about the console war (which console is better).

It is not necessarely stupid to disscuss that but do not await that you can force an answer.

I think the much more important thing we should disscuss is:

Is Game XY good worth really 60 Bucks, or is its quality a problem and a crime on it's customers who pay fo it?

And are 6 - 10 hours Gameplay really making a full-price Game?

fELIXADER

I think I'll just toss in this quote by an anonymous posting about Shadow of the Colossus:

"The whole game was about not letting go. She's dead, but you won't let it end that way. You can't let her go. These emotions from the story are reflected and emphasized by the actual gameplay elements. You have to hold on. The grip button is the crux of the game. R1, gripped tightly in your right hand. Don't fall off. Don't let go. But how long can you hold on?

And then the ending. You've held on to the end. Your stubbornness has killed your only companion in this unyielding battle against the inevitable. You've become the monsters you've been fighting. And now, defeated, you are dragged from the one you wanted to save, to your apparent doom. Everything is falling away. The last thing you can grab are the stone steps leading up to the pool. And you grab them, following the instincts you learned by playing the game. Find a handhold. Hold on to something. Don't let go.

... And you can hang on to those cold, stone steps forever - but you gain nothing. The cutscene doesn't end. The vortex doesn't go away. You can't advance from there. Against all the mechanics of the game you grokked ages ago, you have to let go. In that single moment, gameplay, writing, theme, and the high art of ludemes perfectly mix. You accept your fate; only then can you be redeemed."

Shiroi Kaze

I don't understand the "games as art" movement. Will the videogame world suddenly sprout sunshine and rainbows for everyone if people believe they are "art"? Who cares what the elitist pricks of society think? I thought games were about having fun.

BelgianBadger

@ExistentialEgg: I can't really condone the idea of intent defining whether or not something is art, when there is SO MUCH OUTPUT, and not all of which is being used to generate profit. For example (my favorite example): YouTube videos. If you search for "Salvia tripping" on YouTube, you'll find hundreds of videos of kids smoking salvia and tripping balls and recording it. Now, there is no intent to make a profit, because it is impossible to make a profit by putting a video on Youtube. But it is also doubtful that everyone who posts a video on Youtube of themselves high on salvia is truly trying to describe some theoretical or philosophical idea. So what do we do with output like this? Absolutely, it does say something about our general Whatever of which we are a part, but it is stuck somewhere between how you would define "art" and "output." Clearly, this is a very specific example, but I think it applies in a more general way, if I had the time to explain it.

peAr nectAr

@Shiroi Kaze:

This is what I think games should bring to the table that can't be done without interactivity: game mechanics that express the game's message or vision. Team Ico's games do this really well.

concrete_d

What is the goal of art? To make social statements, to illustrate beauty and virtue, to praise the simple pleasures of life. Can the goal of art be carried out in an entertaining way?
I think Harvest Moon is one example of a game that glorifies pastoral life in an entertaining way. Games like Folklore and Shadow of the Colossus illustrate beauty in the character and environmental design, while having entertaining mechanics. A game that fails to entertain sucks as a game. I could say more, but this isn't the time or place.

AllegraStreit

does a game make you think, and reflect on life? does it make you stand back, and say, wow, that is truly beautiful!

if the answer is yes to either of those questions, then the game is art.

based on how much it effects you, the better the art, i would say.

joeloliol

In my opinion, games are art just like movies and music are art. But only some games are artistic, good examples are okami,odin sphere,flow and Pixeljunk eden.

Molotov

Fuck the whole Art (w/ a capital A) movement. Create something that produces a reaction, that makes an argument, that can be regarded as "beautiful" or "hideous." Make something intentional, something that had an aesthetic schematic laid out beforehand. Make something inspired and inspiring. Don't worry whether you're making Art.

scrapeape

the media itself is art - computer games is an artform. just like literature, music, film etc.

darbonne

@YHWHMystic: Broken dishes swept into a pile have been considered art.
Plastic garbage cans have been considered art.
A kitchen table and chairs and utensils have been considered art.
Christmas lights tossed on the ground have been considered art.
A video of a naked man jumping around in front of a camera to the music of Adagio for Strings is considered art.
A painting which looks like a reversed Austrian flag, and was sold for a small fortune, is considered art.
The zoo sells self-portrait paintings produced by elephants which is considered art.

How many actual artists work in the typical development team of a development house at the peak of production?

glutto

Alright, art is what you think it is, it's such a vague and mysterious term, that it may as well be whatever the hell you want it to be, it's a no definition term to be honest, you can slap it on anything because it's all determined on the person using it.

I'll just take a random example, my backlit keyboard: "It provides light in times of need, like Jesus in times of war, it isn't as comforting as the latter, but, If I think of it that way, I appreciate it more"

It's just a matter of the person, not the thing. It's more of opinion than fact. The argument here isn't really whether or not games are art, we're just trying to persuade people to have a better opinion on games as a medium, while the opposing side is... opposing it.

Now, there are some games that convey emotion for me, but, that's what I feel, which may not what others feel, some might be incredibly bored by the dialogue-less narrative of Shadow of the Colossus, maybe never finding meaning in it at all, while others may be inspired, puzzled, provoked, whatever. Art is a more mysterious version of Opinion.

Glass_bomb

@Spidery_Yoda:

Hey Spidey, fancy seeing you here. :)

As an argument in favor of TF2 as art, consider this:

Plato: Art is an imitation of real life. Tf2 teaches us that proper teamwork can help people achieve their goals, something that is true in real life.

Tolstoy: Art is a communication of feeling. When playing TF2, people will often feel ecstatic when they win, frustration when they lose, unrelenting rage when they get dominated, and bittersweet satisfaction when they get revenge.

Nietzsche: Art makes life bearable. TF2 is often used as an escape from the drudgery of everyday life.

Hume: Art is a matter of Taste. I think everything is art.

I can keep going, still got Immanuel Kant, Socrates, Hegel, Sigmund Freud, and a few others to go through.

Pezdispenser

@Ashurahori: From a technical stand point, yes, EPIC (Fail) Movie is art. Of course, from that same technical stand point, everything else and their dogs are art (a sentiment I'm more than happy to agree with).

Pezdispenser

@giovonti: amen, so true.

pandafresh

games can be artistic. games can be art. it all lies in intent. is there an attempt at expression? communication? do they make you feel (i'm not including controller throwing frustration here)? do they engage you emotionally?

yes? great! art!
no? not all games have to be art. and that's perfectly fine!

let. this. debate. go.

i think a lot of the reason this debate continues is because we feel the need to justify ourselves and our hobby- maybe because of all the restrictions people are trying to put on games at the moment.

bialia

Why do video games have such a hard time being accepted as art?

Film for years had this problem also, and the answer is simple. When it comes to art over history we've always attributed it to the artist. A single person that had a vision to create a piece of art. With games there is no single person but a team of people creating. Without the idea of the individuals vision it tends to loose it's focus.

Video games being a young medium also has the problem of being over saturated. With hundreds of high quality titles being released each year, and thousands of low quality titles society hasn't had much time to filter out the truly good games.

jrhawk42

@Anitoon: Once again I must protest, they're ALL art. The only reason anyone says otherwise is because they have a state of mind that wants to classify what is and isn't art.

Pezdispenser

There are many mainstream games that can be considered as art. I think art is the perfect combination of elements, which end in something which the viewer thinks is beautiful. GTA IV is one of those games... where every single element just comes together beautifully.

sattarsoul

@ExistentialEgg: I think that touches on what I said.

I consider the housewife, too, an artist, albeit of a very different type, and with a very different goal.

Where a master chef is trying to capture something "metatastual," striving for some quality in food that is normally not there, the housewife is balancing and exploring the boundaries of her family's wants and needs versus pragmatism and economic considerations.

If no thought whatsoever was put into household meals, we'd all be eating protein gruel.

It's still art, it's just less self-indulgent.

The pragmatist makes art that matters. The high artist makes art that WILL matter.

rivaldi22

@peAr nectAr: yeah. it's complicated. I remember an anecdote from my painting professor. We consider a gourmet chef to be an artist, they create wonders in food, yet a housewife is not, she merely creates food for her family. Even that though I think still touches on intent. The chef is trying to show off his/her mastery of food and amaze. The housewife is performing a utilitarian task by feeding her family. Not trying to sound sexist, just sharing what an older professor passed on to me. Either way, I like to eat food, not look at it in a museum.

ExistentialEgg

there is no "art" in gaming, but there is art in gaming. if you say gta series, shadows of collosus, okami, etc... then yes, art does exists. but as "art", no. read malstroms articles and he'll explain everything. he mentions that wii music is the closes thing to "art". let's see how many would agree to that.

newave

The art aspect of games comes more from the feeling they give the player as a result of their interaction with the game "system". It's not so much the system in itself that would make a game artful, but what is built up around that system that affects the player. Really, any game with a narrative has the same potential as a film to be artful, but it's the interaction with that narrative and the experiences on a personal level that works so well. Sometimes forcing the player into making choices is effective, other times giving them pure freedom is.

Each medium has its defining quality that makes it stand out and is the root of the artistic capabilities of that medium. Music is all aural and thrives on the feeling one receives from listening. Literature is all narrative and thrives on the imagination of the audience as they interpret the text. Paintings, photography, and any Still Art thrive on what can be created to impact people in a single vision. Film brought movement to the visual arts and created fluid environments and dynamic perspectives that added a new feel to what one viewed. Also, the conjunction of audio with film wasn't universally praised, as some thought that it was diluting the basic purpose and experience that defined the medium.

Interactive entertainment, a category under which videogames fall, thrives on interactivity with other artistic mediums; it is this interactivity which creates a unique artistic experience that wholly differentiates this medium from any other. Text-based adventures can be seen as analogue to adding interactivity to literature. Musically based games such as Rez, though also using visuals, may be seen as analogue to interacting with music. Although rare, it is possible to make two-dimensional games without significant movement that could be close parallels to Still Art, but a vast majority of all videogames could be seen as adding interactivity to video.

Interactive entertainment in itself brings up some interesting challenges relating to artistry, such as how if one is merely a spectator to a form of interactive entertainment, the entertainment then reverts back to its original form; watching someone play through a level of their favorite videogame is really about the same as watching a kind of experimental film - one must participate in the interactivity or they are experiencing a different medium. The same, though, could be applied to something like video - if one person is not in the same room as the viewer and is only able to hear the audio from a movie, then they are not experiencing a film, they are experiencing type of audio.

Hmmm… I guess I got a bit off topic there…

Blah8

Shadow of the Colossus.
There is no greater.
It's not the idea of letting the player create their own experiences. That's a playset, not art. It's the idea of interactively communicating a message. That's what SotC does, and that's what it does best.

Oh, and @Newwave, Malstrom is a fool. He's an uncultured, horribly biased and overglorified blog writer. Wii Music is as much a work of "art" as a hula hoop is. The man has some very serious issues.

johnnyrippa

@Pezdispenser: All of your arguements could be applied to any sport. Is soccer itself a sport?

Maybe would argue that *playing* baseball is an art, but the game itself? Questionable.

Putter5

Oooo, Mucha art... nice. I've got three prints of his stuff on my wall.

Tie23

I'm not even going to read the article.... First and foremost - everyone can agree that a painting is art. Everyone can agree that a sculpture is art, even so a painted one. Many here may agree that animation itself is art.

So how come when we transfer this to the digital world in the form of Concept Art, Texturing, Modelling, Real Time Animation and make it interactive: It isn't art anymore?

InAction

I'm in the "Metal Gear Solid games are Art" category, should one exist.

Games that not only have great artistic direction, but plots that make you think as much as enjoy them, is what makes a game art.

GTA IV is a rather good example of this. So are all the MGS games, and even SH2/SH3. There are many others, sure (Psychonauts?), but these stick out in my mind.

Oh and the Oddworld games.

Games are art, but not in the art sense. All you people thinking art means just pictures are sorely mistaken.

plutoknight

if you read malstroms article, you'll notice how he explains the "hardcores" criticism of wii music. and you'll always get the same message from them about wii music that it isn't like guitar hero or rock band. not only that but the same criticism about the wii and it's games. malstrom also points out the difference between the two games, wii music and guitar hero. he not only states his points, but also backs it up.

you know he's not lying or is delusional when he gives a comment on the direction sony and microsoft chooses and he has been right about them. sony and ms will soon go digital download as that is the next new thing on a technological aspect which the systems are focusing on [hd, blu-ray, super graphics, sound, etc....]. you'll also know that 360/ps3 are going digital download as their consoles are getting more hard drive space. the fact that there are more nintendo sales justify that hd isn't such a big deal at the moment [how is tetris in hd going to change as compared tetris in non hd, will it change the gameplay?].

newave

Malstrom IS delusional, no question.
He's the author of the article about the $1 billion cat. His lunacy knows no bounds. He uses the cat as an example to say that because it hasn't lost 1 billion, it's better off than MS's Xbox business. He thinks he's oh-so-clever, but he's not. One cat loses thousands of dollars. You put in food, time and care and get nothing tangible out of it. One Xbox may have lost hundreds. He fails to see that he can't compare an entire business to one god damn housecat.

And those 'hardcore' criticisms are everyone's criticisms. It isn't a game, it's a music-making tool. It's like a Fisher Price keyboard I used to have that plays tunes at the press of a button. Complete non-gamers may be enamoured by it, but that's because it's not a game.

He backs up his points with more garbage. He can make an argument, but not a cohesive or convincing one.

johnnyrippa

@Spidery_Yoda:
Most people won't accept cartoony graphics as art.

The best example of games+art I know is this:
[xspblog.com]

Amanita design stuff.

Bokusatsu_Tenshi

@BuzzHonky: you sir, should have your own column. I think you did a great job of fleshing out that art is about perception, and it all depends on the person and the "art" kudos*

Spookie

Art is about using the medium to communicate your ideas. In the popluar medium of static images (drawing/painting etc), the best users of the medium are able to great visually inspiring works that communicate powerful ideas - If you've ever looked up at the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, you'll get an idea of that. Films become art when they use the medium of moving pictures to achieve their ideas. This obviously manifests itself in the ability to tell a narrative, since a sense of time an be imparted to the viewer, as well as images and effects that can be implemented through use of a camera. Playing with this sense of time (either manipulating - see Memento - or obscuring the narrative - see Rashomon) is using the medium to communicate ideas - this is art. The medium of games is interactivity. An otherwise standard platformer than looks beautiful contains art, but is not a 'game as art'. Conveying emotions through the fact that you are in control (A movie showing the deaths of the collosi would be emotional, but the power of that idea when you doing it yourself is amplified greatly) or manipulating you by acknowledging that you are in control (MGS) is using the medium itself to promote a message. This is 'games as art' There are of course many other examples, I chose those two because they are easy to describe.

SharvariDrury

I did an interview with Jason Rohrer about needing context to make rule-based systems into art. The discussion focused on The Marriage--my interview was conducted and posted in July. Great minds think alike, I guess? Here it is if you're interested: http://thehappymedium.tumblr.com/

NanPhaethon

@Ashurahori: EPIC MOVIE is art. it's just really terrible art. A creation can be "art" without being good. I've seen plenty of terrible paintings in my life. That didn't mean they weren't art. The same goes for video games.

izzypop8208

He's saying rules aren't art, but the same thing could easily be said about brushstrokes or tones and sounds, it's all a matter of composing them in the right way to make them at least meaningful

YaleFantaztical

well in the history of film and video art so much of it has been boring and mundane, self referential and self gratifying, and mostly unwatchable. but we had to go through bill viola to get to pipilotti rist. we had to go through william wegman to get to alex bagg. and unfortunately we'll have to go through linger in the shadows to get to whatever comes next.

saulpimpson