All "Windows integrated experience technology" has proven to be an unusable junk of software.

Really, Rockstar? Do you really have to sell yourself to Microsoft to help them out of an ugly hole they might just as well pull you in instead?

lumpi

We already have a savior for PC Gaming, two of them actually, called Steam and Impulse.

PC Gaming would be closer to one unified platform if companies like Microsoft and EA stopped being bullheaded, abandon their horrible systems nobody likes (seriously, does ANYONE like GFW, or EA's bullshit DD service?) and just partner with Steam.

But we'll never see that, because these companies are too arrogant to admit that someone else already has a better solution in play.

Roufuss

I'm still not sure what Games for Windows is supposed to accomplish other than tighten Microsoft's control on PC gaming. Live works on Xbox because it is a closed system. You don't have Live; you don't have multiplayer. On the PC gamers have other options, and trying to force them into using your service (especially before they dropped the fee) just pisses people off.

It reminds me of GameSpy Arcade. For a long time it seemed like every FPS out there asked if you wanted to install it, but why would you when the game has its own server browsing software?

Games for Windows needs a compelling reason to jump on board besides an exclusive title. That doesn't make the actual service desirable. It just makes it the only game in town.

Gouki4u

@HueyFreeman: I'm not saying PC's are cheap. What I'm saying is that they aren't dedicated gaming devices. Just about everyone owns a PC, and to take your standard PC and make it able to play a good portion of games at an enjoyable level of quality isn't difficult. Again, look at the steam stats ([www.steampowered.com]) and you sill see that a large portion of their user base still has old graphics cards and small monitors with low resolution. They still use the service and still play games on there because they can do so economically on a modest machine. It's not always about having a power rig to run crysis at 60fps, which is fairly obvious by the crysis sales numbers.

Joebob-X

@HueyFreeman:
You hit the nail right on the head.

Strife56

Slightly off-topic here, but what has prevented the PC Gaming industry (thus far) from promoting some form of standardization for Hardware compatibility/requirement levels?

I recall reading several years ago about 3dMark possibly becoming a decent system of communication for system requirements, as the games box could contain a "recommended 3dMark score" etc etc.

I understand the headaches involved in initially starting such a system, but Microsoft's approach for GFW just seems so backwards: the focus being cohesive product displays at stores and prominent branding logos on boxes. Why not use that marketing muscle and budget to work with developers to standardize game reqs/hardware compatibility?

EugenePota

How can a port of a game that was as overrated as GTA4 "save" PC gaming? If PC gaming ever gets "saved", its going to be from an actual working anti-pirate program that doesn't just hinder the people that paid for the PC game.

Akira119

@Joebob-X:

Isn't that still over $500+?
My point is, PC will never be as popular as consoles, because the cost factor, and the fact that it can't reach every audience.

HueyFreeman

I'll wait for it to come out on Steam so I can play the inevitable GTAIV MMO just like the one that came out for San Andreas. It's the only reason I want to buy the game for the PC seeing as I already bought the game for 360.

I thought it was agreed that GFW was dead now anyways. No? I refuse to touch the thing with a ten foot stick. Steam is just too awesome and I'm really pissed at M$ for their lack of support for the PC.

TwilightKing

@HueyFreeman: You can look at the Steam user stats that valve releases to see that a large majority of their customers don't have high end rigs. You can make a capable gaming PC for just a couple hundred more than you would be spending for a PC for general use.

Joebob-X

I strongly feel someone wants to kill PC gaming but I'm not sure who it is. It could be MS, EA, Actard, GameStop, etc... the list of suspects is very long but the feeling is stronger than ever.

okenny :) ...building bridges (to hide under)

@fumar: Yeah, I think that's one thing that always gets blown out of proportion against PC gaming. You aren't spending $1000+ on a PC gaming rig. You are spending that on a PC. It does other things. The additional cost to make it gaming capable is not the same as the total cost. That extra money spent also allows you to do other stuff as well. I'm not saying PC is cheaper, it just isn't this gargantuan expense for something that only plays games.

Joebob-X

@fumar:
Yes, but lets say you're a regular teenager. You're parents won't plop down $600 for a computer just so you can't play games. $250 is more doable for them, so they'll get you a 360 or PS3.
Not everyone can afford PC Gaming Rigs, the 360 and Ps3 tap into the teenage market more than PC ever will i bet.

HueyFreeman

@HueyFreeman: If they view a 360 or PS3 as an inferior product compared to a PC, yes.

Really it doesn't take much money to make a brand new PC into a gaming PC, lets say you buy a $600 system with a core 2 quad and 3 gb of memory. All you have to do slap in an ATI 4850 which costs $190 and you can play any PC game.

fumar

Very true, some publishers dont care either, i think its a 360 / PS3 Fanboy thing with all this 'Death of PC Gaming' rubbish, we PC Gamers are meant to be worried and buy a 'PC Wannabe Console' Pure jeaulous as we can afford a great rig

MortonCabarizzaaay

@Raptr569: The costs involved with PC gaming make it a primary gaming platform for me. To get a good gaming experience on the PC I think you have to make it your primary platform.

The reason the Nvidia and ATI sponsorship programs will continue is the amount of money those companies are giving developers allows them to make better games. Right now, game sponsorships are a necessary evil.

fumar

@Raptr569:
Idk, do people really wanna spend $600 for a gaming rig when they could spend $200-$300 for a 360 or PS3?

HueyFreeman

Steam is a much better platform. It's a shame that Rockstar obviously took money from Microsoft to bring it to their platform instead of the way better and more succesfull Steam platform. I'm going to bet we see the game on Steam within a year anyway.

DarkNight_DS

I used to pay for using Live on Windows to play Shadowrun. That is some motherfucking dedication.

GFW?. All it does is put your .exe shortcuts in the "Games" folder.

PsycheE

@Swift_: Yeah, that's another good point. How is a game that's already sold a bajillion copies on its original platforms going to suddenly repeat that on a third platform? Gears PC repeat anyone?

Joebob-X

@Swift_: Just you.

fumar

Hearing how much Microsoft will be involved in the PC release of GTA4 makes be worried about whether-or-not there will be mod support. If it does I'll probably get-it. If it doesn't it's 50/50.

TheHeeyyy

I really think most PC gamers don't care about games for windows. The requirements don't affect most gamers, and GFW Live is a pretty bad system right now. The "nail in the coffin" comment is so off the point because we don't NEED gfw to be a success for PC gaming to continue to be strong. Any failure of GFW just allows steam to continue to rule and for other robust platforms to thrive (d2d, impulse, good old games).

Joebob-X

Nah, this game is too old and uninteresting to do any saving. I know that comes across as really jaded, but who else was thinking it?

Swift_

I think that Games For Windows if succesful could potentually revolutionise PC gaming back into mainstream again.

PC games are lossing a lot of love because of bad compatibility and confusing system requirements.

If game makers would then drop things like Nvidia and ATI sponsorship and optimise their games for both platforms I think a lot more people will adopt PC games as maybe not a primary but a secondary gaming platform.

Raptr569

@HueyFreeman:
I'd love that, as I no longer have a 360, but I still play the likes of Gears of War and Lost Planet etc, on my PC, so this would mean I'd once again be able to game with my buddies on LIVE.

Strife56

Haha just what I was thinking
[kotaku.com]

Clarke

Another nail in the coffin of PC gaming? When did we start building that?

DoomDoomDoom

If this works well, we'll be one step closer to intergration of Live allowing inter Pc and 360 multiplayer

HueyFreeman

I got about 3 hours into GTA IV and got bored with it. The same thing happened with San Andreas. Vice City is my favourite GTA, no doubt about it.

duckmouth

GTA 4 was beyond over hyped. The same goes for the reviews it got. It really got so boring after a few hours into and the multiplayer just felt like it was something slapped together so that they had it.

This is my opinion and I'm sure this is a great game for many others. But I don't think this will "save" games for windows.

Masx

A mediocre port of a game designed for consoles, and marketed for consoles, is going to save PC? GFW and MS don't care about PC gaming, they just give us the scraps from the 360 and cull PC developers from their ranks. (RIP Ensemble) This won't benefit PC gaming as a whole, only the GFW division.

Leanid

@HueyFreeman:

Yes, a PC is more expensive than a console by itself, but this has been said before: people who own a console also own a PC. The price of a PC + a console >= the price of a gaming-ready PC. That's all I'm saying.

Hamsfork

If you charge money for multiplayer on a PC platform and it is not an MMO, you are going to get burned. It does not matter if it's 50 dollars or 50 cents, you do not charge for online gaming on the PC unless it requires the company to continually run a dedicated server. It's a service people have had for free for far to long for them to willingly accept being charged additionally for.

geoffcbassett

@HueyFreeman: Understandable, but what I'm trying to get across is that PC isn't just for the hardcore. The Sims 2 has sold whatever hojillion copies and it doesn't have the lightest of requirements for when it came out. A large subset of the PC's used to play the sims 2 probably are capable of playing half life games on steam. Then you have the PC's coming out in the past two years. All it takes for 90% of the desktops sold in the past two years to have decent graphics in modern games is the investment of $200 for a reasonable graphics card and many of those already would have come with it. Consoles have higher numbers for the high graphics fidelity, but there are an order of magnitude more PC's out there that can play games, any games, than there are consoles. GTA isn't necessarily what is going to drive that, but there are always PC's available for games to show up on in a range of graphics settings, regardless of if they were bought for the sole purpose of gaming.

Joebob-X

@Hamsfork:
I know that, I'm sorry if i wasn't specific, but I was starting from the 360's price point, and i have read that PS3 will be $300 soon.

It's expensive for certain audiences. The teenage market, how many do you think make up the 360's and PS3's audience(more for 360 i'm sure)?
A 360 costs $200, $260 with a game, $310 with a game and a year of XBL. A PC costs $500+, then even at that price, most aren't gaming ready. Also, if you are going to college, and you could afford to have a MacBook, then you are most likely the audience that would be playing PC games, which are the affluent.

HueyFreeman

@HueyFreeman:

Last I checked a PS3 doesn't cost $250. I know so many people who own a laptop and a console and say PC gaming is too expensive. I call bullshit on this. A cheap laptop costs around $400-$500. A ton of college kids have Macbooks which start at $1000. A console costs from $200-$400. So buying a laptop and a console costs about the same as buying a "gaming" PC, more in some cases. PC gaming really isn't that expensive and people need to stop saying it is.

Hamsfork

@Joebob-X:
I understand that, but we are talking about PC's in the context as gaming devices. Either way, it's still expensive, because most people already have PCs, and as you said, they have older pcs and still play, but what happens when the games become too "high tech" for their pcs? thats the problem with pcs, you always have to update it hardware wise. Consoles you don't, so its cheaper in the long run.

Consoles>PC in terms of sells and audience numbers
PC>Console in having having "next gen" graphics and concepts, and just being a more well rounded device.

Also, look at it this way. Lets say you have a teenage son. He's average boy. He wants to play some video games, so you go out to buy him something to play it on. The LAST thing that ever comes on the parent's mind is a PC, its Wii, 360, Ps3, the mainstream stuff.

PC is the more hardcore market, which means less people will be involved with it.

Sorry if i rambled

HueyFreeman

The first thing I do with any game I buy is crack it so I can avoid that obnoxious DRM, and hopefully it will let me avoid Games for Windows too. GTA multiplayer on 360 was good for 360, but if the gameplay is the same then I can pass on the PC.

mhlaxp

And this is what is going to make me stop waiting for the game on the PC and instead get it on a console.

GFW is a POS.

juc

Eh. Games will always come out on PC as a significant percentage of the playerbase enjoys more complicated, moddable titles. I own consoles so I can check out the exclusive titles, but I've only bought two titles from the current generation, everything else is a rental for a day or two then tossed in the return bin. One of those two titles was GTAIV, which was regrettable in retrospect. It's not a high point of the series despite having a lot of great features, and I was done with it after a few days.

Adversely, PC RPGs, MMOs, FPS titles with multiplayer... those things can suck me in for weeks to months at a time. They don't translate well to consoles for my tastes.

As for GFW, I'm still waiting for MS to come up with a good reason, any reason really, for users to embrace it. I'm not sure how they saw putting a fee on a service dozens of other companies provide for free (or with minimal advertising) as being a marketable product.

Calhoun

@WiNG: Every win for Microsoft is one step closer to cross platform multiplayer!

HueyFreeman

Until there is a steady stream of cross platform games, nobody will give a damn about L4W

WiNG

@Joebob-X:
Most people who make console games probably started coding stuff on pc

HueyFreeman

yeah i like steam, it's easy to use and has loads of games now and a fair few new games are released on it.

I'd say a lot of PC gamers have a console as well and i expect something like GTA4 has already been played by most, it's certainly not something the people i know are bothered about pc wise.

over the next 2 months there are loads of other new titles on pc and consoles that are far more interesting.

games for windows is just another microsoft system to control it all, pc gaming is fine and doesn't need a system like live introduced.

Chippo

It was ineffective because it was handled really badly on PC with very little effort put in to it. It's amazing MS have all this money and resources yet fail to do some proper research and quality control.

GFW Live was and still is a fantastic idea, but handled by what seems to be a bunch of amateurs who really couldn't care less.

Winterbringer

Another person waiting for Steam. I have it on XBOX and I was going to buy it on PC for the replay and added multiplayer but no thanks to GoW

SeedyROM

@HueyFreeman: The system you describe does make some sense, I just don't think the people who will be looking at that are going to be the people buying crysis. Everyone talks about making PC more accessible, but the non tech savvy crowd on PC are the ones playing the sims, etc I think. I don't think PC should be bigger or smaller than consoles, but I definitely think the whole "pc gaming is dead" statement gets thrown around without realizing that PC is still strong and kicking, even if Crytek bitches and moans that they only sold 1.5 million copies in six months or whatever that figure was. I see more PC game releases every week than I see console releases. That's the other great part of PC gaming, is there's something for everyone on one system and there is no barrier to entry for developers.

Joebob-X

Waiting for the Steam version because I know it will come out on Steam eventually since I own the rest of the GTA series on there. I already have it on my 360 so I'll just wait until I can get it on my preferred PC platform.

thor79

@Hamsfork:
I respect you're opinion. I'm speaking more for the casual people, people who are just getting into gaming, and the teenage market.

HueyFreeman

Sigh... more dumb editorial headlines from Kotaku. I hate this site sometimes.

keith.burgun

@Joebob-X:
My thing is, that $200 for reasonable graphics card. That doesn't come to the average person's mind at first. They think of consoles. Now me and you, we might think of all these options, but most people who are interested in video games will turn towards consoles.

My opinion is, that for now, PC's are for the people who are more...tech savvy than the "casual" potential and regular gamers. What I think PC should do, is release a gaming rig, like what the people who did for Crysis Warhead, then apply a system to the games.
ie "my gaming rig is a C(something like that). I can play any games C and below. The game makers would rate the game based on hardware requirments, and people would know if their pc could handle it." that would make it easier for people to get into the pc market i believe. They could take it a step further, and have it where they recommend you what product you would need to be able to play that certain game, and have a list of what other games you could play if you updated that certain part.
Sorry if i don't make any sense

HueyFreeman

@MortonCabarizzaaay:
PC Fanboys are some of the most biased/closeminded people on the planet.

beem

"another nail"? What? PC gaming is in a fine state, if you ignore that DRM is preventing people from buying some games. Games for Windows LIVE sucks, I don't see the reason for giving MS that kind of control over things. How about "Games for Linux". You know, so I don't have to worry about whether the next version of windows watches everything that I do, and has to micromanage all of what my games do, or if it phones Bill Gates every once in a while to tell him what I've been up to.

It's not going to happen, but it would be nice.

Akin

@PsycheE: Pretty much every game I have on my PC right now shows up in my games folder automatically. Even GTA Vice City, that I loaded onto my PC recently is there.

homernoy

They have already tried to pull this stunt with Halo2 PC and what a major screw up it was.
They did everything wrong that they could possibly do and the most moronic part was, where there were trying to charge PC gamers for online play/services. X_x

Well i know that they made those services free recently, but I still hope for GFW to die a horrible dead before it can turn into a full-fledged crap selling machine.

neojam

@Darksider1972: There have been other LIVE games on Steam. (Kane and Lynch, The Club) Thus GTAIV will probably be on Steam as well.

ChaosBahamut

MS would have to pay me and give me free games to install Vista.

supercrap

@geoffcbassett: Which Microsoft realized, thus they made GfW LIVE 100% free. (granted no one will argue that they should have done so at the start, but better late than never)

ChaosBahamut

We have a system we like, it is steam. GFW failed the moment it tried to CHARGE PC users for multiplayer access.

Azriel77

Sorry if ain't on Steam, i am not getting it..

Darksider1972

I hope they wont sign an exclusive contract and move on to Steam.

What's their DRM policy, btw? Too few publishers were smart enough to use Steam instead of crappy SecuROM when they had the chance to. :/

lumpi

@HueyFreeman:

Thats all well and good but a console game in the uk costs around £35 (wii), £45 (xbox) or £50 (PS3) a pc game costs anything from £14.99 (crysis warhead).

Upgradability means that you spend less in the long term on a pc games platform than you do buying the next gen console when it comes out. Obviously if your an enthusiast then this won't be the case.

Cost is not a factor unless you want a laptop. Lets face it everyone hear is probably posting on a PC which is litrally a graphics card short of a gaming PC.

Raptr569

@beem: PC isn't short from "console".

mizeriq

@lumpi:
steam's? I think its up to the publisher/developer, for valve developed games i think its none, but i know cysis has a 3 authorization max. I would guess valve tries to get them to decrease it, as trackmania (which originally had that nasty starprotect stuff) is completely clean from steam, and free.

roflwaffles

@duckmouth: I bet Saints Row 2 would, tickle you mind!

TheTimeisback4Good

I don't see what the fuss is about. At any rate Games for Windows is better than EA's online gaming service, which is pure awful and they insist on using it for all their PC games.

Walker

@HueyFreeman:
man you kids are so f'ing spoiled. when i was in high school a gaming computer cost 2000. and that was just so you could play wing commander 1. the shit is so cheap. get a job! of course you wait until the price drops hit. what about when the ps3 was 600 american dollars! and games are 20-30 more per pop. do the math.

cihx

dang I was hoping it would come out on steam...

Swizzler121

Most people already got GTA IV, I think Fallout 3 For PC is gonna be more important especially since its one of the first good games to be a Live title meaning you can do stuff with people on their 360's and get achievements.

gamecrazychris

Hmmm... GTA IV might just save Games for Windows... but on the other, MUCH more likely hand, it might not.

CukyDoh

Steam and GFWL are not mutually exclusive. Universe at War is a GFWL game, and you can buy it on Steam.

Struct09

@beem: And X360, Sony, Nintendo fans are any better?

sereal

We PC Gamers don't need GFW as our savior, because Steam has been the savior of PC Gaming for the last several years now. Especially when you consider that more than half of PC Games are purchased digitally, and then all the journalists say PC Gaming is dying when they look at bullshit NPD sales figures that DON'T EVEN COUNT online sales.

MafiaAce

you're right it does piss me off, GTA PC is irrelevant to PC gaming at large.

Zodduska

You can add features until it's a whole new OS, you're not making me pay for an online experience when it's been free for years. If I wanted to pay for something that's traditionally been free, I'd buy a 360. Thanks.

e-friend

"That might piss off PC gamers who are just fine with Steam and are tired of hearing more talk about how their way of life is going extinct."

QFT.

ShirtGuyDom

@HueyFreeman:
I wouldn't really count on it. As long as Microsoft refuses to support mouse and keyboard, there will always be the control-scheme imbalance. The idea that controller players get auto-aim makes PC players cry foul and the console players obviously can't keep up with the more accurate reflexes of the PC players. The only way to strike balance would be to require PC players to use controllers, which would work for games like GTA IV, but no one would bother on most FPS.

stupid_mcgee

I hope GFWL fails miserably. Microsoft would still be giving PC gaming the shaft if it wasnt for the success of Steam.

bighit006

@keith.burgun: Sigh...more dumb wiseass and useless comments on Kotaku. I hate some commenters sometimes.

Spoony Bard

Meh, GFW is okay, I guess. I'm glad they made it free, as I don't think any PC gamer in their right mind would ever actually pay for it.

Really, I just want Microsoft to make keyboard & mouse available for the 360 and release more cross-platform titles. Do what Epic did for UT3 on the PS3: when you set up deathmatch you can join kb&m-only, controller-only, or kb&m and controller matches. This way controller players don't have to worry about PC players whooping up on them and there's no whining about auto-aim.

stupid_mcgee

Aha! I zee vhat is wrong!

Zo, you like ze eightiez Miami, yez? Zat is quite common among variouz coke uzerz and millionairez. Zo tell me, vat have you been znortink?

I kid, I kid. I have no idea why I did that in a stereotypical German therapist accent.

Ghede

PC gaming needs saving?? Don't think so: [adrianwerner.wordpress.com]

godot

Support for x360 controllers?

Is this how they're gonna justify not being able to change weapons via mouse wheel in Call of Duty 4? I suppose this explains why I was forced to d/l mods for Oblivion just to get a decent f__king map and item menus.

And they want to narrow the precision and performance gap among controllers in x-platform gaming? This sounds just like marketing talk for:

"Our x-bots are getting pwnzed by any douche with a keyboard and mouse, so we need a way to level the playing field".

Soon they'll make us revert to Pg/Up & Pg/Dwn to aim in FPS's. Just you wait.

kazemizuhi

If GTA4 came out as a
vista exclusive, it would
sell about as well as
Halo 2 did.

Sullyville

"Games for Windows might just kill GTA 4 for pc"
Thank you...

In fact the other day I said I liked steam better but when I didn't have internet connection yesterday, I was kinda pissed not being able to play my steam games that I bought, without an internet connection.

GodKiller0

Yes, PC gaming is so dead.
Lolwut.

Yofu

What does Games for Windows Live offer? Steam is a success because it offers things that make its existence worthwhile(update management, easy digital installation, community chat and info, and the weekend deals).

rocsflight

I wasn't aware that there was actually a coffin to nail...

Soho

The PC world doesn't really give a shit about GTA. About sa much as the console world cares about WoW or WAR or Counter Strike.

Smutking

@DoomDoomDoom:

I think that's the problem and why they need so many nails. No one bought any wood.

noboard

The survival of the PC and the survival of Games for Windows are two different things. One is a platform, the other is an unnecessary logo attached to titles for the platform for some unknown reason.

mcderek3000

I'm confused I thought Games for Windows will always be f2p vs other pc.

I'm thinking most of the people here are thinking Games for Live.

Either way woopie-doo on the whole xb360 controller on PC games, not until they add force feedback and vibration on their steering wheel on the PC driver.

Neko_Tech

I wasn't that interested in gta in the first place but microsoft makes it lees appealing not more.

Crowbot

GFW and steam are no better or worse than each other.I swear, half of you guys have GOT to be on gabes team because there is nothing that steam can offer to me except an inability to have control over something that i have payed for.
Can anyone that`s not on a sales rampage,sleeping with gabe or doing drugs on a regular basis seriously tell me that they have trouble buying a dvd and patching it occasionally or are you all just a bunch of lazy c*nts and are too scared to click a download button on fileshack?

UFO

Man, so I won't be playing this game after all.

Cavefish

@Joebob-X:

Yeh but think of the modability of the game engine, thats why it will succeed.

Plus not everyone has a console, I have plenty of friends that prefer pc gaming who will be buying/stealing a copy of GTAIV for Windows.

Raptr569

I was thinking the same thing as I purchased the Rockstar pack on Steam this weekend. Vice City is still awesome I must say. I'm not sure how GTA:IV would effect PCs but I could definitely say if PC gaming doesn't get its act together and consolidate onto Steam it won't help things.

GlItCh017

Online gaming worked just fine before GFW. It was free, and Micro$oft didn't control it. It was handled through the game itself. No idea why we need this unnecessary platform.

malio

@cihx:
I'm not spoiled dude. I only get 3 games a year, and thats during Christmas. If i could get a job, don't you think i would have fool?

Thats why the PS3 didn't/doesn't have as many teenagers playing it, it's still more expensive, and it lacks good online capabilities(imo).

HueyFreeman

I kinda wish Steam and GFWL would work together.

I love that Steam just does everything seamlessly, but I love that GFW integrates the 360 controller into everything.

Altima NEO

UNO, you left out some important aspects of steam. Where else is there a friends network, steam community game overlay, stats tracking, FAST download servers, instant patching,steam cloud, and a platform to buy all of ur favorite games in one place.

RosalieCanace

1. PC Gamers aren't confused about system requirements... maybe kids, but not grownups. I know what will run on my rig. Games for Windows Live has almost nothing to do with system requirements - yes, they have a system indexing application within windows Vista that gives you a rough scoring system, but frankly it doesn't impress me (the score fluctuates fairly regularly despite no changes to my system, and most AAA titles still claim to require a performance index far below any sense of realism).. 2. Hate to drag up WoW as an example, or even counter-strike, but here they are - with user statistics like that, how can you call PC gaming anything other than mainstream? A unifying money-spinning brand name that had the audacity to try and charge PC users for multiplayer support they've had for years for free is of so little importance in the world of PC gaming it's worse than laughable. In fact it's pathetic - like M$ were asleep for ten years of PC community life, and then woke up in 2005 and thought, hey, there must be money to be made there, and hopefully we won't even have to work too hard - lets just import our console interface and charge them for it, along with buying a couple of killer apps and taking out the free multiplayer unless people play ball with us, and kaching, right? The whole thing makes me sick. PC gaming is a massive, high-speed world, but some people don't seem to know how to access it and lack the ingenuity to try, instead trying to define it in console terms, or worse, in $$$ terms. There's such a wide range of content out there, from such a wide range of developers, that it dwarfs anything you can realistically expect to see on a games console, and definitely can't be lasso'ed into yet another money tree for microsoft. One more point - "If game makers would then drop things like Nvidia and ATI sponsorship and optimise their games for both platforms I think... yadda yadda" - how many game engines have YOU optimised then? You're telling games devs they'd be better off NOT taking money from chip devs, and hiring twice as many staff to optimise their code for two different graphics chipsets? That makes a whole lot of sense.

CharityCabaniss

M$ should give up on this Games for Windows crap... Steam do it much better. By trying to force PC Gamers into a small, badly-performing niche where they're basically using very expensive xbox 360s to play games a year later than everybody else, they're insulting dedicated PC Gamers. If it's taken a year, why not make GTA IV a proper PC release, with effective controls, and platform-free multiplayer, instead of just importing the 360 version (badly), forcing us to use 360 controllers, and forcing us to use your shoddy multiplayer client when most of us prefer the infinitely-more-popular Steam? In other words, just what in god's name have they been doing for a year, besides cashing cheques?

CharityCabaniss

If you're a regular teenager get off your spoilt ass and get a part time job and save up for it yourself. I did that when i was that age. I bought a $2000AUD pc when i was 16 out of money i worked hard for. Better yet, your parents should be teaching this to you not me.

SalimaReinprecht

Alan Wake
WoW:WotLK
Fallout 3
Red Alert 3
Left 4 Dead
Farcry 2
Starcraft 2
Alpha Protocol
Empire Total War
Demigod
Dawn of War II
Call of Duty 5
Borderlands
Diablo 3
Doom 4
Duke Nukem Forever
Mafia 2
Operation Flashpoint 2
RAGE
Wolfenstein 2
Darkfall
Anno 1404
Jumpgate Evolution
F.E.A.R. 2: Project Origin
Star Trek Online
Dead Space
Mirrors Edge
Godfather 2
Red Facton: Gorilla
Cities XL
Dark Horizon
Bionic Commando

.. RIP PC Gaming

HaZiLLa

Three words: World Of Warcraft Those three words will keep PC gaming from being buried next the Playstation Portable's coffin.

ZakiPig[17]

........ Alan Wake WoW:WotLK Fallout 3 Red Alert 3 Left 4 Dead Farcry 2 Starcraft 2 Alpha Protocol Empire Total War Demigod Dawn of War II Call of Duty 5 Borderlands Diablo 3 Doom 4 Duke Nukem Forever HL2: Episode 3 Mafia 2 Operation Flashpoint 2 RAGE Wolfenstein 2 Darkfall Anno 1404 Jumpgate Evolution F.E.A.R. 2: Project Origin Star Trek Online Dead Space Mirrors Edge Godfather 2 Red Facton: Gorilla Cities XL Dark Horizon Bionic Commando RIP PC Gaming

NanAmyclas

ill wait for the steam version

bloodline

I'll wait for the Steam version.

bloodline

Let's say I'm a regular teenager. I am. My parents won't plop down 600EUR for a computer. So, what do I do? I GET 600EUR. Not complicated. You do some work. You save up the money you get from birthdays/christmas etc. And you'll get what you need. Possible? Yes. I was lucky enough to win a competition earlier this year, so I got an iPod. iPod, BLEH. Sold the iPod. That started me off with 200EUR. Did some work for my parents over the summer. 100EUR. Birthday is coming up soon, that should be another 100-150EUR. And then Christmas in December, which should be about another 100EUR, plus my parents might help out by giving me a loan, so that I'll be able to custom-build a rig (pirate TinyVista etc to save cash, and ram) by the end of this year. PC gaming kinda fits my plan. I love online games like TF2 and Unreal Tournament with expansive online communities and custom content. Plus, the rig I'm building, with 4gb RAM, 3.00GHz dual-core and a 9800GT fits in cheap, because I'm building it. Should be about 2 years future proof, and start putting in upgrades then.

YashwantKolkata

how about put out a game the same time it comes out on console that'll save Games for Windows

gtrunner3

I was going to get this but I'll probably pass now. I despise GFW Live and am just going to wait on the Steam version if there ever is one. If not, oh well.

bloodline

Quite why so many companies are trying to create Steam beaters is beyond me. I dont think that any other third party app will really take off as well as Steam has, after a few teething troubles, even if companies force you to use their applications to run the game (Steam NOT included), which IMO, would be rather annoying, almost as bad as the SecuROM farce in reception

BlendaMorris

May I please request that GTA4 PC feature Dedicated Server support?

All good online PC games need them...

Defoliantonthemoneytree

Or, we can just stick with using Steam.

MerlinZeigler

@HaZiLLa:
indeed ^^'

neojam