Rather than simplifying things like input or the number of moves do like gantz said and just put in a tutorial: anti-air, combo system, gatlings, stuff like that and basic combat theory.

Though I suppose that's too much work when you could just dumb it down.

Sutekh

Super Smash Bros. actually resolves many of the issues Ono mentions. Why can't the solutions presented there be transferred to more standard fighting games?

Quilt

I think the first thing they need to do is get rid of this crap about "simplifying" things to get new players. The players are always here. They always have been. Make a good game and people will play it. Make a crappy one and they one. Make a super easy one and they'll play it for a day or 2. I don't get devs these days. Whats the point of spending millions of dollars and years of their lives to make a game that lasts only 3 days at the most.

Metron144

The first thing they need to do is create a beginner mode like every other genre has. I would almost suggest slowing the game's speed and adding blatant visual cues to train newbies how to react accordingly and approach situations logically. Then proceed to yank out the safeguards procedurally to bring them up to speed.

Virtua Fighter has done this to an extent but from what I've seen they didn't really achieve what they set out to.

They then need to understand the basics of fighting.

Range, Speed and Priority.

It doesn't matter how fast or powerful your attack is if it won't connect. If it's too slow for that situation, prepare to lose.

Many a player forget that while, say, shorter/weaker attacks may inflict minor damage they tend to be faster and flow together well. Usually enough to bring your opponent down quickly and efficiently as opposed to the slower yet much more powerful techniques intended to finish off a combo.

In conclusion: Face Breaker tried to dumb things down like they said and all it felt like was boxing version of Dynasty Warriors.

Gantz: Your Trusted Friend in Science.

Great posts so far. I mentioned this yesterday in another thread. @Gantz, I think Sega did a great job with a in-game tutorial in VF4. The training mode set standards and broke new ground for getting a deeper understanding of the game and the way it works. But like most things Sega these days, for some odd reason many of the advancements that were made in VF4 in regards to training modes and even the awesome option to save multiple profiles and controller configurations on one memcard (great for tournament play) didn't carry over to VF4:Evo or VF5. Sega is the perfect example of a "do we really know what we're doing..?" developer.

Anyways, on topic. To me, Street Fighter is dead. The last great "hurrah" for Capcom fighting games were Street FighterIII: Third Strike and Marvel vs Capcom II on Dreamcast. Why is a tutorial such a difficult thing to realize for developers these days? RPGs do it...beginner missions to get you familiar with the game mechanics. Nintendo is a master at this. What's Capcom's excuse? Why do long time fans have to suffer because Capcom wants to give in to the bullshit notion of the "casual gamer can get what we're trying to do..."

This isn't going to end well. If you look at Capcom's history, they are going to run Street FighterIV into the ground just like Street Fighter II. My advice. Don't play Street FighterIV. Ignore it. Wait for Street Fighter IV Turbo Hyper Super Special Sexy Edition HD: Alpha 3 and maybe just maybe...it'll actually be worth playing and not a Street Fighter II rehash.

Striderhayasa - Phillyyakk on PSN and Live.

I obviously meant Luchador instead of Labrador.

Silly spell check.

Blues

Anyone else read that as Yoko Ono the first time through? I was quite confused...

GusherKid

That was a really good read.

I'm really excited to sit down and play the Labrador.

Blues

Personally I think my favorite fighting game was Marvel vs Capcom, so I can't really agree about less special moves O_O

SlashseveN303

@yomachaser: I disagree considering Tekken and VF still use down forward (fireball) motions in their games. That's not the problem. Ono says that the fanbase diminished because of the increasing complexity of fighting games. Really? how does he explain the rapid fandom of Marvel vs CapcomII? I'd bet his job that if Capcom could have released a Marvel vs CapcomIII on current gen consoles in HD like King of Fighters XII, it would spark an all new fighting game craze. Marvel vs CapcomII was one of their greatest achievements and harder to play than SF.

The diminished fanbase is because of total over-saturation of the street fighter franchise. That's the story and as I mentioned before, there are "casual" gamers that play GTAIV and their are "hardcore" gamers that play Lumines and tetris. making the series more casual friendly isn't the solution. look at the real problem...Street Fighter has been driven into the ground and not as many people care anymore as a result.

Striderhayasa - Phillyyakk on PSN and Live.

I'm already in an uproar about going back to Street Fighter II mechanics when Street Fighter III did everything so much better.

Oh well, it'll hopefully still be a decent game that's worth playing.

As to making fighting games more accessible, there's always Soul Calibur IV and Smash Bros. Brawl for those who want to hit buttons and win. Let us fighter fans have Street Fighter, Dead or Alive and Guilty Gear.

Phazonmasher

Bring back that arcade feel of anyone can play and simple to play - tough to master.

No insane combos, juggling, super special hyper combo power turbo move, 3D counter high - low - medium tactics, or secret style of play only learnt from playing for 100 hours straight to grasp.

Smash Bros, despite it's faults, does this more then well enough.
King of Monsters could be brought back and do the same.
Street Fighter IV may be nice with Breaks and Saves, but II didn't have them and it's still the most fondly remembered.
Mortal Kombat, a simple form of decapitating someone was good enough for depth.
Size, it doesn't have to fill an entire DVD with styles, moves, combos, and counters to be good. WiiWare or Live sized can give us a fun game.

I love fighting games, I always have. I own the Neo Geo, King of Fighters 98 Arcade machine, and have destroyed many a Dreamcast controller in Soul Calibur, Power Stone (why is there no Power Stone 3?), Dead or Alive, and Marvel Vs Capcom.
Yet for all the fun and joy new games such as Virtual Fighter 5 and Tekken Tag Tournament or King of Fighters XI and many others can bring, it's mainly just the old games that that bring me back more or I can get new people to try out.
Only Super Smash Bros Melee could I get four people who don't really play anymore to sit down and do so and have that old kid feeling of playing games again. That's something we need more of.

Seriously though, why don't we have Power Stone 3?

Kenofthedead

I agree that fighting games need tutorials, and VF4 did have a solid one.

But dumbing down motions and removing buttons is not the way to go for Street Fighter. Street Fighter is built around its motions and its 6 normals.

Yomachaser, you should be more specific... 3D fighters have mostly removed QCF motions, and how are they antiquated? Just because they were created almost 20 years ago now? I got news for you, pressing a button and one direction to attack is antiquated too.

The problem with the fighting genre and the reason that it will mostly remain smaller is that it is solely a genre where you get what you put in, there's no real ending or goal in game, just the personal goals you set out achieve. Sure they can add flashy cut scene endings and achievements, but the goal will always be landing this or that combo, etc. I don't think today's player really thinks in that manner, its like old arcade games, you played to better yourself every time.

RudeAnimat0r

Traditional fighting games can never be more accessible and less off-putting to a wider audience while still pleasing the hardcore fans. You either like the play style or you don't.

I personally am horrible at them, and no amount of noob training and easy modes could make me enjoy myself while playing them any more than I do now.

Super Smash Bros? I'm all about it. Love it. The game is accessible for newcomers and has a fairly advanced endgame for those who want to get good at it. It's also completely different from traditional fighters though. If you were to take something like Virtua Fighter, Tekken, or Street Fighter, and make it play like Smash Bros, longtime fans would be in an uproar.

Mit

I see only one really necessary thing they need to do: create a "new player" mode for their ARCADE titles. Home console versions already have all the tutorial and training modes they need, but in the arcades (especially if a game has been out for a while) it can be nearly impossible to get an even match for a new player--even on the single-player game.

thecactusman17

Umm fighting games already solved the problems Ono mentions quite well by removing the (antiquated) fireball type movements.

If he won't remove them from Streetfighter then it will stay a niche game saleswise.

yomachaser

No, don't change the game mechanics. If some new people won't make that effort, then I'd rather they stay out of the community. Ah, the days when people had to work at getting satisfaction...

Jest

@Striderhayasa - Phillyyakk on PSN and Live.:

A few counter points, the fanbase for MvC2 is rabbid ,but it is also quite small (a few thousand players).

Tekken sales are in free fall ([vgchartz.com]) and the entire Virtua Fighter franchise sold less than just Smash Bros Melee alone so you're reinforcing my position.

yomachaser

@Gantz: Your Trusted Friend in Science.:

What's interesting is how would you approach that without insulting the fighting game audience? Every fighting game newbie I know can't approach Street Fighter not because of it's complexities - but more because they can't relate to any of the characters. I know a lot of non-gamers who would rather play Smash Bros or Soul Calibur because of the appeal of characters.

It also doesn't help that Street Fighter is limited in it's appeal. How, you ask? If you CAN'T make a semi-circle to execute a hadoken, then you aren't allowed to play. A lot of my frustration comes when I can't make cool flashy moves like I see other players do. That's what stops me from being hardcore, and I wouldn't be surprised if it stops newbies from even playing.

Cpryd001

@Phazonmasher: Sigh typical atuttiude from someone whoes probably never even played Smash Bros....

excel_excel

As awesome as this game looks and moves, KOF XII looks to be THE 2D fighting game of the new age, with it's completely over-hauled graphics.

banana_ridah

@Phazonmasher: Even you have to admit gg has too high of a learning curve for most people. If I didn't know bout dustloop I prob would've quit a long time ago.

DOA seemed to me very accessible to newbies. Dunno much about sf, its been a while since I played one.

Sutekh

@GusherKid: Uh, no, because I know how to read, plus Yoko Ono hasn't done anything significant in the video game space. Ever. ;)

banana_ridah

@Sutekh: I know they aren't that "insane", but to the casual player or someone just walking by?
How about to those who have no idea what b f punch means? Or QCD? Quite confusing and insane then.

I second the thought on manual dexterity. Me poor fingers with some games.

Kenofthedead

@Kenofthedead: why is there no Power Stone3? Because Capcom blew it. If ANY capcom game should have been re-released or given a sequel on Wii prior to Brawl...it should have been Power Stone. Hell...I'd buy it on PSN or Wiiware or Live. Total missed opportunity

Striderhayasa - Phillyyakk on PSN and Live.

@Phazonmasher: I tend to completely murder people in smash bros that simply button mash. Smash Bros is definitely not a game that button mashing helps in.

Ichidou

@Kenofthedead: The "insane" combos don't appear to be quite so insane once you put a bit of finger grease into it. Though I do agree they take more manual dexterity than I would like.

Sutekh

@RudeAnimat0r:

Actually 3d fighters like Tekken,Soul Calibur and Virtua fighter have added even more old school commands that 2d games ever did and their sales show them to be niche games at best.

3d games like Naruto,Smash and 2d games like JUS are growing rapidly because removing the input lets the game designers (and the players) focus more on position and execution of moves.

I call the more convoluted inputs antiquated because they are the older notion for launching special attacks/abilities, as opposed to newer games that opt for a special button.

I also firmly believe (and sales back me up) that the gamer has largely moved on.

Given the choice between a harder and easier input method most people are choosing the easier and that part of the genre is moving forward with many new games each year while the input games are rapidly falling into niche status.

yomachaser

Yoshi Ono needs to realize this: Fighting games are not as popular as they once were and dumbing down SF's gameplay won't magically fix this.

The mass market just doesn't give a crap about the genre anymore, just like they don't care about platformers and shoot'em ups. If he wants to make a game for the mass market then he should work on a fitness game for wii or another shooter for the X360/ps3.

Otherwise stop pissing off SF fans with this BS.

Triforce

The controller is the problem for me. The standard dual analog controllers for current systems just don't work well for fighters as far as I'm concerned. I know there are arcade style joysticks out there, but I don't want that either. The last time that I really enjoyed SF was during the SNES era. For me, the perfect controller for this game is the SNES controller. The D-pad is key for this game to me, and I don't like that part of the MS or Sony controller.

Spartan1308™

I really don't know why people have this idea that SF3 is so much harder to play than the SF2 games. It really isn't, and I'd rather play 3S over ST any day.

Grave

@banana_ridah: I agree

VENOM-ZX

well at least there's no out of place guest characters

VENOM-ZX

@Poison:

I'm not saying they should remove the attacks, I'm saying they should reduce the overall button layout and use a special button to generate the attacks.

The reason I think they need to change the input style is what you said, over time it got out of hand.

By relying on commands for specials it only takes a few sequels to overrun a series in too many specialized commands.

A button based method can accommodate way more specials without getting bogged down.

yomachaser

Ono was definitely right about their fighting games usually having some sort of exploit; Right now, I believe there is an infinite combo that can be done by players using El Fuerte.

1:12 -

+ Watch video

Poisonous Taoist

@Jest:

Then don't be a complainer when your scene is you and five other guys talking about the good old days.

Fighting games evolved past the need for complex inputs a while ago. If you don't want older series adopting any of that change don't be shocked when few if any of those games get sequels.

yomachaser

@yomachaser: Removing fireballs and special moves from SF is like removing blood and fatalities from Mortal Kombat. You'd be left with a possibly good, but generic fighter.

Special moves worked extremely well in SF2. Down-forwad moves, charging up moves, rapid button-mashing moves. Exception: Dragon punch and Zangief's moves. But you had 8 fighters with a maximum of 3 special moves, so it was extremely easy to memorise.
Then came more special moves. Then super moves with more complicated movements. Way more characters. And it got out of hands.

Personally, I still prefer SF/MvsC/KoF games with input special moves to games like Tekken or Soul Calibur, where I have to memorise 25,000 combos for each character and the inputs are different for each of them.

Poison

It's not just Capcom making their new games accessible to wider audiences.

ArcSys slowed down BlazBlue (compared to Guilty Gear, at least), made Specials inputs simple, and dealt away with the hardest mechanics of GGXX^AC (slashbacks and false roman cancels, both of which typically had 3-frame timing windows). KoF XII looks to be slower than KoF XI, and from the videos I've seen at Kotaku, the team matches take place over 3-5 rounds of 1v1 instead of 2 rounds of 3v3. SSF2T: HD Remix isn't slower, but features simplified inputs in the Remix mode. SCIV, though I can't put my finger on what, just doesn't feel the same as SCII or SCIII. The slowdown trend even extends to the new Melty Blood, a series made by a doujin soft group.

The entire genre of fighting games is concentrating its efforts on strategy-focused gameplay, rather than technical ability, to achieve a wider audience. Let's face it - fighters don't draw the same gigantic crowds that they did in days past, and the increasingly technical games that have been released since 2000 are more likely to intimidate than court new players. Capcom, SNK, ArcSys, Namco, etc. are using 2008-9 to breathe new life into the fighting scene, and hopefully fans can appreciate that. Tourneys may proliferate the world more widely and frequently than before as a new generation of gamer gets hooked on fighters.

If the '08-'09 season brings enough new blood, the powers that be may add some technical stuff in the sequels or speed up the play. Who knows? All I can guess is that the next 18 months are going to be exciting and we'll have a lot of great games to play.

jmaster14656

@yomachaser: The flaw here is that if they remove the fireball, I won't be playing it. I have spent years randomly yelling "HADOUKEN!" and my friends all know how to fireball. Even the ones who haven't played Street Fighter. If you remove the joystick rotations it ceases to be Street Fighter and becomes one of the mildly fun, rather random, games you mention in your later post. Removing the fireballs would not only destroy my interest in the game, it would also remove anything that made it unique. Let's face it, different control schemes are really the only difference between fighting games anyway. Besides, the rotations wouldn't function in a 3D environment so developers had to find new ways to execute super moves. This gave rise to the endless lists of combos like Tekken and Soul Caliber, and Naruto's "press B for insta-kill" attacks. The combo approach does not work well in 2D fighters because there is less area to get away from a combo. Naruto's one button Specials turned too many battles into "Who can Super first?" and "My Special is bigger cuz devs don't care about balance!" when I played it. You brought up Super Smash Brothers, its Smash attacks are based on the same basic principle as the fireballs you seem to hate, joystick movement + button = bigger hit. Every franchise has its quirks in controls or attacks and that's what makes them different. Remove that, and you've got the FPS genre's endless lack of change.

ggodo

Can I just have the damn Street Fighter HD already?

TSlade

@Spartan1308™: I wholeheartedly agree. The SNES controller was perfect for fighting games, the non-dual PSX controller probably being 2nd.

I love a good arcade joystick, but never could convince myself to get one, especially considering their usual quality and price.

Poison

One tip to help save Street Fighter:

Drop from 6 commands to 4. (Strong kick, strong punch, weak kick, weak punch.) 6 means slightly more depth, but also means having fewer animations to familiarize oneself with to know what the enemy is doing. It also means fewer RPS outcomes to remember.

chardish

@chardish: Capcom must have noticed this because Tatsunoko vs. Capcom features four input buttons (I think) instead of six. I can't answer for Capcom, but I think they wanted Street Fighter to remain a six-button game to keep with the series' tradition.

jmaster14656

@jmaster14656:
blazblue has no FRCs? I mean, slashback was kinda silly but FRC is pretty important...

ZinkO: preferred the old theme AND comment system

@Phazonmasher:

Actually, button mashing in any Smash Brothers game is much different than any standard fight, since it will actually get you killed.

Hell, have you even looked at the Smash Bros competitive scene? Those people are just as crazy as any hardcore player who plays standard fighting games. In Melee it's hard for my eye to even keep up with what the hell is going on. D:

Rauzaruke

@chardish: They tried that with Capcom vs. SNK 1 as a result of KoF using four buttons, only to go back to six in CvS2.

summerdrone

@Quilt: Mainly because many hardcore players who focus on other fighters don't regard Smash as a legitimate fighter as a result of the conventions which define it (it's generally dismissed as a party game as a result). It's considered too far removed.

summerdrone

@ZinkO: preferred the old theme AND comment system: The Location Test guide on the Japanese website has no mention of equivalents to Roman Cancels or False Roman Cancels. The new Cancel type is called a Rapid Cancel, which allows you to catch an opponent's attack and cancel your hitstun at any point.

Guideline (en): [blazblue.jp]

Location Test System Guide (jp): [blazblue.jp]

Quote from the Location Test Guide[tl]: RAPID CANCEL: Remove the stun of an attack. Uses 50% Heat Guage. During an attack, press Weak+Mid+Strong.

jmaster14656

@Striderhayasa - Phillyyakk on PSN and Live.: You obviously haven't played SF4.

Narishma

@Cpryd001: You can choose to play characters that don't have quarter circle moves. There are enough of them.

Also I hope if they try to simplify the gameplay they do it in a new game, and not Street Fighter, or they risk alienating their fans in trying to bring new players in.

Narishma

@summerdrone: It's true; hardcore fighting game fans do not regard SSB as a fighter, but rather a brawler-type game pitted against other players rather than numerous enemies in a level-progression layout. Anyone who claims that it is a fighter is often mocked by experienced players of more traditional fighters.

However, Quilt does make a good point. Maybe we should redefine fighting games to be like pvp brawlers to make them more accessible. Games like SSB focus more on gameplay rather than the complexity and timing of executing moves, and that's what separates the two genres. Fighting games require a level of mastery -- you need to spend time in training mode experimenting with range, speed, priority, and combos that give you an advantage over lesser knowing players. You bring those to the table and hope to catch the other player off-guard, maybe even impress him. There's nothing casual about that; sometimes it seems more like doing homework rather than having fun, but the payoff is definitely there if it works out. I think the whole training/research phase adds barriers to entry and shoos away people who do not want to invest the time studying, and that's hurting the genre.

ChiChi_BBQ

@yomachaser: "Then don't be a complainer when your scene is you and five other guys talking about the good old days."

Love it! :D

That is an excellent point. You give a game flash to attract the consumer, simple mechanics they can grasp and learn quickly and then start pummeling their friends and having fun. Now that you're in, over the coming months you'll start to experiment and get better and better. Of course this is natural progression for any fighting game, but the point Ono wants to make is that he wants ALL players to be able to do this, not just fighting game fans.

For SF fans who are still playing SF II Turbo, you will always have EVO if you don't want to accept that things change and aren't willing to adapt.

kyte00

@jmaster14656: Mavel vs Capcom 2 was also 4 buttons.

Narishma

@ChiChi_BBQ: SSB does have that hardcore element though, which is the odd part. If you were to look up a 1vs1 battle on youtube, you would find a slew of incredible fights that showcase timing, range, strategy and reflexes. All the same things you would hope to see in Street Fighter, or Soul Caliber, or Virtua Fighter.

The difference is that moves in SSB are simple to execute, which prevents casual people from being turned away, but there is easily enough complexity hidden in the game that an expert will always come out on top.

Quilt

@Sutekh: I would say that it's more work to make sure a game is easy enough for players to grasp then throwing a bunch of game mechanics into the mix. I don't see any of what their doing as "dumbing down" as Ono has just admitted that it took a year just to make sure the moves as they are now work and aren't broken for just the new characters. If you look at checkers, that's a very simple game with very basic moves. People can grasp it because the barrier to entry is low, and the less time they spend trying to learn the mechanics the quicker they can leap into the game and start having fun. Not only that, even though this game has simple movesets, that doesn't make it any more "dumb" of a game as it can get extremely complex. I don't have fun in any of the tutorials of the games I play, do you? I prefer to skip them.

Moral of the story: Simple isn't dumb.

kyte00

@Metron144: Have you ever seen sales charts saying that Street Fighter III or DOA 4 or Tekken 5 or Virtua Fighter 5 reaching 4,000,000+ sales like HALO or GTA? No, and it's because these games aren't "simple" enough to bring in a lot of players. You ask what's the point of spending millions of dollars and years of their lives making games people play three days at most? Are you saying they only play it for three days because it's simple? I disagree. Look at Ikaruga, a great game with "simple" mechanics, yet it doesn't sell gangbusters. The reason is because it's too damn hard to learn, because the Expert AI kicks their asses, because the online competition beats them to a pulp, and they get discouraged because they've witnessed an obstacle they view as insurmountable, and the tutorials are hardly an incentive and accessible enough to learn, especially when it takes days or weeks to get through everything for even one character. Why spend all their time making games the same way they have been when the market is not giving them a proper return on their investment? In that sense, yes, they need to "simplify" the game to recoup their costs and create something that will be enjoyed by many more people than just the hardcore fighting base. "Simple" is lowering the barrier to entry and making it so every player has a fighting chance at winning. If they get beat down all the time online or against the CPU then they won't want to play the game anymore.

kyte00

@ggodo:

You're misunderstanding me, read my response to poison.

yomachaser

Wanna make fighting games more accessible...try less bitchy (dare I say cheap?) A.I. in the single player modes.

Soul Calibur 4, I'm looking in your direction....

Seriously, looking back on years of play the one thing that initially turned me off of fighting games (I use to hate them in middle school) was the act of trying them out at home or in the arcade and getting my ass handed to me by the CPU...and rarely in ways that seemed either fair or humanly possible (charge-free Sonic Booms anyone?). This has held true for my friends as well...from our younger days straight up to the present.

Nightshift Nurse: Mile High Colonic

@Quilt: Street Fighter III Third Strike is so much better than Super Smash Bros. from a "skills" point of view it's not even funny.

At the least, these are very different games so your solution to drop one in lieu of the other is not acceptable.

magictroll

Rather than "dumbing things down", more fighting games need better training modes that actually teach players how to play, and teach the basics of fighting to people who don't understand fighting games.

Akin

@jmaster14656: Wait a tick. The English and Japanese guides conflict. While the Japanese guide is (as the Japanese language as a whole tends to be) vague with its nouns, I think it implies that the Rapid Cancel is the new Roman Cancel. The English page, however, flat-out says that Rapid Cancels catch your opponent's attack. But why would Rapid Cancels do that when you have Bursts? .......

I just want to play the game to find out. November couldn't come any slower now.

jmaster14656

They should have thought of back when smash brothers first came out for N64.

Vashu

@Nightshift Nurse: Mile High Colonic:

That is a very good point, many companies still make the ai a "quarter muncher" even though we buy the games outright now and aren't playing by the quarter.

yomachaser

@Narishma:

Well not technically , second consecutive hit of low button was a medium hit but 5th and 6th button were helpers quick summoning.

Anyway I have always prefered 4 buttons config like in King of Fighters over Street Fighter 6 buttons, having less buttons doesn't mean a less deep fighting system; look at Guilty Gear for example.

Hell, i hate self imposed rules but even me and my friends still play Real Bout Fatal Fury Special to this day with only three buttons and not using the Line Change button and with that rule we thing is the best fighting game ever.

LordCiego

@Narishma: how do you know, it's at the last local arcade in my area and they're charging a dollar to play it and they have the difficulty and the damage meter jacked. One super does 60 percent damage...

move along.

Striderhayasa - Phillyyakk on PSN and Live.

@Gantz: Your Trusted Friend in Science.: I think you're right. Maybe call it a training mode or something, and within that mode you can pick to start very basic lessons *which would be something like you described* or advanced lessons *where the hardcore learn to connect combos and Focus attacks together in loops or whatever the hardest of the hard do* this way both newcomers and elite players can use the mode. Personally I view SFIV as I do Mega Man 9: a game for fans of the series and anyone else willing to put in enough time to learn it.

myketuna

Street Fighter does not need saving. Almost 10 years after its release, Street Fighter III: Third Strike still gets LOTS of play time with my friends and family. We played Soul Calibur 4 for a couple of hours only to turn it off and put in Third Strike.

All Capcom had to do was make a gorgeous 2D Street Fighter 4 and people would have bought it in droves. I don't doubt this 3D iteration will also sell, but it will not last. Street Fighter III in Capcom's eyes because it didn't attain mass market appeal. Newsflash, there is a hardcore fighting game market out there, why not appeal to them?

Honestly, if they would have released a 2D Street Fighter 4 in HD with only 8 characters I would have bought it expecting a sequel a year (which I would also have bought) and I know I'm not the only one...

magictroll

@magictroll: IV is a 2D fighting game, it just has 3D backgrounds.

Kenofthedead

@chardish: Why stop there? Why not just do away with most buttons and stick to three?

Punch, Kick, Special/Taunt/Auto-combo like Super Gem Fighter did?

Kenofthedead

Dead or Alive was the first fighting game I got into because it was easier to pick up and play. The rock-paper-scissors of attack-throw-counter made perfect and immediate sense to me. And yet look where that game stands with the hardcore crowd. Not very popular.

Never really been a fan of Street Fighter (the last time I played the damn game was in the 90s) but I'm looking forward to trying SFIV.

Xiedo

"Perhaps less buttons is the key"
Um.. yeah. 6 is a bit much for many people. While I don't see a reason to knock that down for a new game in a current series, I think new series should focus on 4 normal-usage buttons. In a lot of games, this means only 3 attack buttons and 1 guard button.

"or perhaps less special moves is the key."

I don't know about that, the Soul Calibur series has tons of moves and stances, but it still manages to be mainstream. By comparison, Melty Blood has only a few special moves per character, but is a very difficult game to learn.

Akin

@yomachaser:

Low Punch, Low Kick, Middle Punch, Middle Kick, High Punch and High Kick..

Is this really that hard for you to wrap you head around?

No one is saying don't improve the series or even change things a bit, we just don't want it dumbed down just for Ono's delusional hope that by removing all the depth from the gameplay will somehow result in the series becoming the next wii sports.

Triforce

Are you serious? They don't want to just cater to the hardcore fighting game community because it isn't nearly the size it was when SF2 was at its peak. If they can regain some of that market, they've not only made more money, but it ensures more competition at all levels of play. The hardcore have had games made for them for years, and since some (like 3rd Strike) are so good as to still be playable today, why should they be catered to yet again? Let's tweak things and see if the genre can regain some size and respectability.

Some of you just don't get it. They don't want to make the games dumb. They want to make it so that a person who becomes good at reading moves and tactics can answer them effectively, instead of having to wrestle with strict timing and inputs. That is a fair cause, and it is why SF2 was popular in the first place (I understand Supter SF2 Turbo is quite a lot different from the original game, but even by then the crowds were not the same).

The old days of the genre were incredible. I'd love to see that return somehow, and I think SF4 is a fine attempt at addressing that, no matter how much they may hurt the feelings of a crowd that shouldn't be offended at all.

taidan19

Well, Virtua Fighter is Punch Kick Guard and people are shocked by how deep it is... and despite how good the game is, not many NEW people play it...

and i don't think having less buttons on SF will work. Maybe 4 like in one of the console versions (HP was hold MP) but any simpler and you'd lose all the depth in SF's specials.

If they want new people to play, just make it more smooth, flashier, more shiny and sparkly and add DOA like chicks.

Ultrasinc

@Gantz: Your Trusted Friend in Science.:
Definitely. I like the idea of the beginner mode that helps walk players though the basics. Really, they might want to try and base the training exercises off of actual martial arts training or something.

Blah8

"Perhaps less buttons is the key, or perhaps less special moves is the key."

Not really. The Soul Blade series is one of my favorite. My ex was able to get into it, as you can still be competitive by just button mashing. If you have mastered the combos and special moves, you are a formidable opponent, but can still be taken down by players with less skill. I think that's the real key.

stupid_mcgee

@Gantz: Your Trusted Friend in Science.: they did make a somewhat beginner mode in capcom vs snk 2 eo. special moves could be used with the c-stick instead of requiring a combination of joystick movement/button presses.

wana10

@Triforce:

I think you've misunderstood me dude. I don't consider modernizing the controls dumbed down at all.

I've played money matches and gone to tournaments so I'm not some scrub who wants to make fighters casual, I just think they way Capcom (and SNK) handles controls is bloated compared to other systems and does not deliver for depth.

Virtua Fighter for example has a much more streamlined input system than Street Fighter and many more attacks.

yomachaser

The problem is really difficult.

Good players will always find a way to abuse mechanics in way bad players cannot. If bad players beat good players too much, the game will be a random crapfest.

That said, SF4 seems like it did a pretty good, though not perfect job.

To me, the goal should be to make it where picking the right options more gets you wins most of the time, over a person who just knows one combo.

This is why Guilty Gear and 3S to me are responsible for a lot of the problems with fighters today.

arstal

@Gantz: Your Trusted Friend in Science.: Yeah, they could put a little thing right after you pick your character(s), like the Turbo/Normal speed thing in Marvel Vs. Capcom, with something that said "Do you know how to play" or something? If you didn't, there could be a little screen that'd walk you through the special moves and making you do them, like learning a new song in Ocarina of Time.

dslsd64

@yomachaser: Uh, I haven't and I won't.

Neeeeeext.

Jest

The only thing I like about Street Fighter (and KOF) series is that the matches didn't end in 4 hits (Soul Calibur/ Tekken) nor is it a 70% damage combo-juggle-fest like Guilty Gear.

That's simplicity for ya. But where Capcom has disappointed time and time again is their visual design which other games companies tend to do better.

Starplate

@yomachaser:

But here's the thing dude, Virtua fighter itself wasn't that much of a seller. Npd numbers show that it sold only 53k when it was released on the ps3 and it wasn't even in the top 10 when it was released on the 360.

So i don't think the controls is what keeping people away from fighters.

Triforce

@Triforce:
Consider this, VF's never been much of a seller in North America.

Unless you are talking about worldwide sales?

CommentatorHatman

@ChiChi_BBQ:

You've misunderstood smash a bit, it has combos and tactics and if you don't understand speed,position and priority you'll never really be playing well.

Smash is it's own kind of fighter and some (not all or even most because it's welcome at EVO) old school players resent it because it's selling much better than the games they like and it's pulling the genre away from the traditional paradigms like lifebars and it drives them nuts.

yomachaser

@Jest:

I'm not saying your complaining, it was more of a caution that you shouldn't be suprized when the future holds less and less "standard" fighters for you to enjoy.

yomachaser

@Triforce:

Then why are fighters with easier controls increasing in sales while traditional controlled fighters are losing sales?

yomachaser

maybe they can add a fighter creation on it like Soul calibur 4. or maybe make the combo system like devil may cry where it gives u more freedom on how u want to string your combos.

onionhead_o

@yomachaser: And I won't be surprised, which I'm trying to say that I've been finding you mostly trite comments to be generally irrelevant.

Jest

@yomachaser:

What fighters are you talking about?

Aside From SSBB, i can't think of any other major seller.

Triforce

@CommentatorHatman:

Well VF didn't exactly set the japanese charts on fire either considering it ended up being the 184th best selling game last year with only 84k units sold.

Not sure about Europe though.

Triforce

@Jest:

Waaa? How are my comments irrelevant? Also why so hostile?

yomachaser

Me too.

auron-1

Characters look to stupid.

auron-1

Characters look too musculer.

auron-1

Interestingly, SF4 has a beginner mode. If you choose beginner mode, you get to play 3 matches against weak computer opponents before you can be challenged by a human opponent or face stronger computer competition.

WoodrowPsyche

Personally, I agree with him. If the moves were easier to pull off it would be less about technical ability and more about the competition and reading your opponent.

...or maybe I just suck at doing special moves.

R1ZE

Capcom tried this style of fighting game anyone remeber Poket Fighter and look how well it did.

ValfridErato

Why is he saying "Saving" Street Fighter, and yet hindering progress, gameplay wise? Look at Street Fighter III:3rd Strike. The parry system in that game, in my opinion, is pretty revolutionary. So why does a series that has revolutionized the fighting genre so much actually take a step back?

If they want to make it easier for newbies to get into, then let the newbies get punished. No one learns how to play Street Fighter well the easy way (inb4 "TIER LISTS"). It's what makes the experience more rewarding: when you start becoming better, there's a feel-good experience that means "Wow, I just parried that and made a sweet comeback."

We can't advance in gameplay if we keep simplifying. Which is why I'm a bit disappointed in this game (and the fact it moved to 3D. Hey, anyone remember Street Fighter Zero? Yeah.)

sniping_dreamer

@Triforce:

Other non traditional fighters that are moving up are both primary Naruto series (tomy and cc2), both recent Dragonball series and the Jump games.

More games like these are springing up all the time too.

yomachaser