@robinhood_0: uh, i guess, but you did what any smart consumer would do: you supported the product, which is good,, then you opted for the version they shouldve sold you. no harm done in my book.

damn, if these amazon quotes are to be believed, yeah, you get 3 spots and if you re-format, upgrade (hardware or OS) there goes another, with you having to ask for a 4th and prove you need it. another guy pointed out that his save files woudlnt work on another guy's system, too. this really sounds like a case of punishing the legit consumer..how does this secureROM keep making money?

TheIrishNinja

@SSJ4_Macd: Well if the game has a virus on it (the DRM), then it should get a bad review. Seems fair to me. Also, if there's a chance it won't even work because of the DRM, then I sure as hell don't wanna buy it.

Point is, these reviews are supposed to inform someone on how good the product is. The product you are purchasing aren't just gameplay ideas or graphics. It includes everything on that disc.

dowingba

@robinhood_0: Yes - and this is utterly ridiculous.

Bravo to these people on Amazon - maybe the companies will see this and take note (he says, unoptimistically).

Overlord44

@MikoKeZ:

gotta agree with you on that, I just got to the center of the galaxy and beyond a neato joke it kind of like wtf do I do now. Since the ability to destroy worlds sort of blows and and the random "go this, go that way!" of the missions in space it kind of sux to play this thing too much.

pokebud

@robinhood_0: Yeah you did.

But back to the story, I thought you guys were exaggerating a bit. I'm in shock at the backlash. Shock of joyous goodness.

bluSCALE4

@robinhood_0: Yeah. I'm not for or against your actions; I just saw a question and went for the answer.

Legion329

Case in point, I bought Mass Effect about a month ago and installed a pirated version so I didn't have to install the DRM stuff on my PC. Does this mean I've broken the law?

robinhood_0

@dowingba: Yeah sure but when its fair and unbiaesd, these people are attacking a single issue and its not even to do with the game (or how the game plays).

Again as stated i dont like DRM as pointed out it dosent affect the pirates at all, these people are just being idiots and will do nothing but hurt there own cause, cyber terrorism does not work!

but hey welcome to the internet eh?

SSJ4_Macd

@Crippl3:

You're being treated like a criminal more then the Pirates do.

You uninstall the game three times? Sorry, buy a new one. You format your HD on a regular basis (you know, like you should be?) To bad.

Guess how many uses the guy who downloaded it has?

Here's a hint: Infinite.

Evdor

Internet justice, gotta love it.

dirkxxdiggler

@Crippl3: Well you sure do start to feel like the game is calling you a criminal when it DOES tell you a criminal and refuses to install. Yeah, that will get to you. I for one didn't buy Mass Effect for the same reason. Steam lets me redownload and install my games as many times as I want yet the steam owners don't complain about rampant piracy. Funny how that works. Give people a system that empowers them and they will buy your product. Give them the fifth degree every time they want to play your game, and you get pirates. There's a reason this game was pirated before it came out, people wanted to prove a point. Whether the point was right or not doesn't matter. What matters is that the DRM is what prompted it.

Joebob-X

@dowingba: This!

It achieves NOTHING but piss off the people who buy games.

AokiShinya

After playing this game all the way through to the space age I'm wondering why it has had such a following, it's really not that good a game. The reviews on the amazon page are pretty accurate.

MikoKeZ

@Crippl3: I think one problem with DRM is that the only person it hinders are the law-abiding citizens who bought the game legally. Pirates? DRM doesn't hinder them at all. Literally.

dowingba

While i dont agree with the bombard, i do enjoy it when those on the internet do something together without messing it all up.

Ra is on Seinfeld

@SSJ4_Macd: Well they're reviewing a product on Amazon. Shouldn't people know the product's flaws? And to find out, shouldn't they read reviews?

dowingba

FYI, you don't have to buy the game from amazon to write a review. So as long as you have an amazon login, you can leave a review.

AokiShinya

I still don't get why folks hate DRM'd games so much. I don't feel like I'm being "treated like a criminal," as some have called it. Bioshock didn't bother me at all, and I don't think this will either.

Crippl3

Man makes games; People pirate games; Man makes DRM; DRM kills games; DRM creates Skynet; Skynet kills people; Robots inherit the earth.

robinhood_0

First of all... OWNED
Shame though, Spore doesn't deserve to be bombarded. It's an amazing game and deserves the best.

damatman

Still seems a little unfair unless the designers agreed to go along with this form of DRM i dont think you should attack the game, why not blow up EA headquarters (i do not promote vilonce against multinational corporations, i just condone it :P)

SSJ4_Macd

This is one game (and probably Dead Space) that I'm missing out on due to it's being published by EA. It's exactly this kind of crap that refreshes my resolve to avoid everything they release, despite it's possibility to be a good game. The industry simply has to change.

LongDarkBlues

When the game comes out, CRACKED, on the net a full 2-5 days before release (5 for EU, 3 for UK and 5 for US) date, well there ya go. That cash spent on SecuROM wasn't really worth it was it. Yet again pirates have no trouble and legitmate consumers are punished. This is getting ridiculous now. I really don't know why some developers fail to learn from others.

CukyDoh

@DaveKap: Use the "Unlocker" app. It helps you remove securom and flash9c.ocx and some more Adobe/macromedia shit. Those files corrupt the NTFS partition and in that way they make themselves non-removable.
I had several partitions locked-up by that shit (can't format, can't delete, can't unmount, can't anything) before I found the Unlocker

somarix

And people are taking the Amazon user reviews seriously? It's Amazon. Amazon's full of whiny little brats.

And if they want to get the game without all that stuff, just get it digitally from EA Store (Actually, EA Store keeeps your download for two years, so not them), Steam, or Direct2Drive! These versions never have any SecuROM, better than owning a disc because they store it online, and better than pirating because you're not stealing!

DukeOfPwn

DRM is the spawn of Satan. I'll never buy Spore while they operate that policy.

IronsUK

Poor Maxis, their game is good but EA ruined it with DRM. I'd rather if instead of limiting installs, they just limit the number of PCs you can install it on (like Microsoft Office products). The original The Sims was without DRM, and beat Myst as the best selling game. Both Starcraft and Half-Life 1 (pre-Steam) sold millions without DRM (well, HL have CD keys but that less annoying). Recently, the DRM-free Sins of A Solar Empire sold 500,000. The piracy problem is overhyped anyway, like game violance.

In another news, the EU recently decided to be tough on online pirates. I wonder why I haven't heard much of this elsewhere...

syafiqjabar

So what EA are saying to us is, our game has silly drm that restricts your usage as a legitimate paying customer.If you don`t like this then go get the pirated version just like you did with bioshock.
Not interested in the game myself but if i was then i sure as hell wouldn`t be buying it the way it is now.Do they really think their measures will even delay in the slightest any pirate versions? I think it`s just adding to the numbers of people who will head down this path and this is what makes me so angry.The pure stupidity of it.
It took me all of 2 seconds to find a torrent site offering this atm with nearly 15000 seeders and over 61000 leechers.So what did that protection do guys?

UFO

There is no rootkit in SecuROM. We went over this with Bioshock.

People need to research before going hysterical.

[en.wikipedia.org]

Fryfat2

@DaveKap: Besides a few obvious flaws, i believe the number 1 reason people do, should and will have problems with Securom is that there are ANY problems at all.

Because 9 times out of 10, the pirate version circulating the internet provides a superior experience without ANY problems, rewarding those who pirate it.

ryivanV2

I would just like people to know 2 things I've experienced with Securom.

1: I was formatting a couple of hard drives I own by manually going through and just deleting everything within the WinXP "My Computer" browser. Strangely, there was 1 file in 1 folder that refused to be deleted. That folder's name? Securom.

2: This weekend I had to replace my current CD/DVD burner. Why? Because directly after installing a game that used Securom a few months ago, it began to malfunction and only opens up about 1 out of every 3 times I try to get it to open.

Thanks Securom, I have actual documentation that your software is shit. I love Spore and it's making me stay up late to play (sign of a good game) but fuck EA and Maxis for allowing horrible DRM onto my computer.

I hope Stardock and Valve tear EA to shreds and piss on its grave.

DaveKap

Phew, I was thinking about picking this game up today, thanks for the warning =)

Anything SecuROM or StarForce will just not ever again get into any system of mine, or any I know. Ever.

Cavefish

There was alot placed in spore, at least by the PC gaming community at large, and i honestly don't think it lived up to expectations, by all means its not a BAD game, but i place more faith in Little Big Planet to be the bastion of User Created Content.

As a long time PC gamer i kind of feel saddened seeing this fall short, but things like dealing with the Cd protection crap does deserve the malice it receives.

But, with the experience i am getting from PSN and the Playstation brand, i like to see gaming grow in that direction, because I give up on dealing with all the problems that come with PC gaming.

ryivanV2

@robinhood_0: Yes you have ('though I doubbt EA would sue you, bad PR for them).

affenvampir

@dowingba:

True, for a product review, but what about of a video game review? Rarely do you hear a game review talk about DRM measure and what not. Should they not be included in the game?

While I think it's a good thing that users are fighting this, I highly think it's unfair to rate the game itself a 1 star because of DRM issues. It's like saying Super Mario World was horrible because it was only limited to one console.

exkon

I'm not a big PC gamer, so I stay in the Steam ecosystem. Never had a single DRM issue with Steam and don't think I'll leave the garden.

hagridore

Oh silly DRM, reminding me once again of why I don't buy PC games anymore these days. My business goes to the 360 and the PS2.

Kortir

@dowingba: Not to mention that most placed won't take a PC game as a return because once you've opened it, they have no way of knowing if you've written down the serial or if you've used an activation. So not only did you find out that this system screwed up your system, but now you're stuck with the product. I think this is part of why Stardock came up with their PC gamer bill of rights: [kotaku.com]

Joebob-X

It was weird when I looked up Spore on Amazon a few hours back, and saw that the game was rated so low. I nearly rejected the game until I realized that it was more of a battle between DRM and freedom, and not people hating on Spore.

Wooh. Guyz, don't scare me like that.

Cpryd001

so why was DRM included again?

to stop pirate copies?

oh well that didnt work.. pirated 5 days before release with no securom bs.

so... what have they gained from their use of DRM?

____GAINED_____

1) stopped pirated copies.. oh well.. at least up until 5 days before release... oh.. yeah ok so.. stopped NO pirated copies atall then. um ok so gained nothing. i wonder if they can get a refund from securom.

_____LOST______

1) LOADS of sales (amazon rating is on 1.5 stars! SURELY putting off MANY buyers). So many legit buyers are now NOT going to buy it, evidenced by many posts on amazon of the ' i was gonna buty this but because if DRM im steering clear!'
2) MORE copies to pirates as many people will pirate it just to avoid the securom issues.

wow.. ok so i ask my original question... why was securom included again?

NovaBlack

The implementation of DRM on this game is, in fact, illegal in the USA. It's only a matter of time before Sony and the accomplices that use the illegal methods they use are brought to justice.

Zunnoab

@robinhood_0: oh man, I totally read that in Malcom and Ellie's voices.

Netnavi

@That1GuyNess: I actually had huge problems getting crysis to update on a friend's computer because of securom. The game came with his video card, but for some reason, after installing the update it wouldn't run. After forum digging, I found a work around, but it was a lot of hassle to get my legitimate copy to work.

Joebob-X

they don't just review the game. they review the PRODUCT. therefore, I think the score is OK.

LeBaron

People HATE drm so much because securom has a HUGE tendency to not work with certain setups. It just clashes with all sorts of programs and it's bullshit. As the goto guy for computers around here securom is a common factor in making your pc into nom nom's.

That1GuyNess

@somarix: wait, it'd stop you from formatting the drive, even? shit, that i never heard of. howd it manage that? that's fucked.

TheIrishNinja

Its a bit sad really.

I bought spore, I've had it pre-ordered for a week or so. It came out on torrents two days before it came in the post so I grabbed it then. Lets sum up the pros and cons of my experience then:

Pirated version:
-Faster
-Free
-Unlimited installs
-No online capability - no creatures from other players or buddies creatures

Retail version:
-Slower
-£25.99
-Apparently limited installs (not seen definite info on this actually, may just be rumours)
-Online capability - BUT spore servers have been pissing around since release and I've yet to be able to successfully add any buddies + the EU sporepedia isn't working.

Hell, even the virtually mounted install was faster than the disk :p

I'm not saying pirating is the way to go of course, but my personal experience plus potentially limited DRM reinstalls severely skews my preference towards the pirate path (YARRR!).

Again, (just in case the FBI are reading this) I'm not advocating piracy, just going off my own experience.

Steam for me presents a happy midpoint between piracy and the traditional retail route. There is the immediacy and convenience of piracy and the good karma of actually paying for stuff :p

ZhouYu

Waaaaaa, DRM. Oh well, guess I can't have unlimited copies of the game. (Robin Hood's ethical solution is good too.)

eastx

i hate DRM

and i dont agree with them spamming it with one stars for that sole reason

but i love to see how such things pan out.
:)

Mr.Sad

@Fryfat2: Are you serious? Really? That article doesn't even back up your point. It maintains that its rootkit status is questionable, but still contains potentially harmful data. And as @DaveKap already mentioned, there have been documented cases of harm being done to computers as a result.

Joebob-X

Yeah! Go! Stick it to the man!
Don't stick up FOR the man!

blueshoals

@bobasp1: That's irrelevant. The whole reason DRM was invented in the first place was due to piracy. You should be angry at the pirates.

Pirates are the ones that are truly responsible for this mess.

Dalren

@NovaBlack:
"why was securom included again?"

To please the investors. DRM and copy protection serve mostly one purpose: To minimize a potential risk in the eyes of an investor. It does not matter, that this risk (losing sales because of unlicenced copying) is only potential. It does not matter, that DRM and copy protection do NOT WORK as advertised. Only thing that matters for companies like EA: Fulfilling the wishes of the investors.

Kajetan

I liken DRM on PC games to Domestics Flights in the US post 911 (119). If you want to secure the future of PC games you're going to have to deal with some clown with a metal detector.

Pandaschreck

lol owned.

DRM just made Spore a Lackluster game.

theEnemy

@Dalren: Um no. Two wrongs do not make a right.

MattB

@Dalren: @Dalren: ... idiot! EA already know the warez scene can basically crack any thing that gets thrown at em. EA knew full well that it would get cracked the reason they did it because they wanted to rent to the game to you for 50$ every few months. They basically set this up to screw over the legit people because the pirates bypass the drm so there's not much to say on that

bobasp1

@SSJ4_Macd: Cyber terrorism? Are you kidding me? Giving a 1-star review for a game with a crappy "protection" mechanism isn't cyber terrorism. Now, defacing EA's website on the other hand, or redirecting traffic to a site that bashes EA...if anything, I'd consider what EA's doing the cyber terrorism...they're making me live in fear that if I uninstall/reinstall too many times (because we all know that we keep everything we install on our computers forever, right?) I'm out $50 and if I want to play again, I have to shell out another $50. To me, that's called theft (so I guess the cyber terrorism thing still wouldn't apply).

tenaciousmonkey

This is the fault of the pirates, not EA. If pirates didn't exist, neither would DRM.

Dalren

@Zunnoab: wait, how exactly? i mean, that'd be great, but why hasnt action already been taken?

@That1GuyNess: wait, first no formating, now nom noms?!
EA, look what your careless hands have wrought.

TheIrishNinja

@ThursdayNext:

To use your analogy. The problem is thieves aren't using lockpicks, they're using axes. Locks don't work too well on that.

arstal

@Dalren: Personally I don't really care who's fault it is. DRM is a waste of everyone's time. The only people who benefit are the DRM makers themselves and many of them are as close to criminals as the pirates are in my book.

MattB

@TheIrishNinja: This isn't chicken and egg argument. Thieves came first not DRM. No one will (or rather should) dispute that. It's the same as putting locks on doors. They are a minor inconvenience and when you break your key in your lock it is frustrating. So what's the answer? Leave your door unlocked and hope that the world is suddenly overtaken by a wave of honesty, or buy a bigger, badder lock that is more inconvenient for you but makes life harder for those who would steal from you. Personally I can understand why companies go for the bigger, badder lock. It helps to reduce the number of opportunist thieves and limits theft to those who are determined, skilled or patient enough to engage in IP theft.

And lets not forget that aside from everything else "piracy" is theft. You are taking something that doesn't belong to you. Software pirates are not buccaneers in search of a life of adventure and freedom. They are nasty little thieves too cheap to pay for something that has taken hundreds of people months, if not years to create.

ThursdayNext

@SSJ4_Macd: Why is that any different for a picket on Wal-Mart? If you're going to protest something you don't like- one way to change it is to try hurting the company for the practice.

The only other option is not buying the game, and if that happens- the companies blame the pirates out of reflex, cause they know that their games can't be crap, Rise of the Robots was just misunderstood. Companies can achieve Uwe Boll levels of self-denial.

arstal

@Dalren: true, but again, this shittily-implemented DRM actually pushes some away from the legit game that wanted to play that way - weve had a few just here in this thread.

im not arguing with you that pirates fuck things up, or that companies shouldnt take a vested interest in protecting their IPs, but again, when other companies (Blizzard, Valve etc) are dealing with pirates in a less obtrusive way and enjoying such success, i cant just look at any invasive measure EA wants to take - including actions that risk damaging the consumer's hardware - and give them a pass. Yeah, you're right, DRM is there 'cause of piracy, but awful DRM like this is there cause of secureROM.

@Des: take it easy.

TheIrishNinja

Good idea to keep posting reviews. Amazon ratings can put a hurt on people. I dropped mine a few minutes ago. Hopefully they can clear this DRM with a patch.

EA is a horrible company. Profitable and well run yes, but for consumers not good at all.

djlowballer

@tenaciousmonkey: definition of cyberterrorism "The premeditated use of disruptive activities, or the threat thereof, against computers and/or networks, with the intention to cause harm or further social, ideological, religious, political or similar objectives. Or to intimidate any person in furtherance of such objectives."

how does this not fall under that category, again im not defending DRM it dosent work.

I get what people are saying about them reviewing the product as a whole and that inclueds the DRM but rating the whole thing at 1 when i would imagine most of tehm havent even touched the game (maybe a pirated copy if they have) just isnt right.

SSJ4_Macd

@Des: Oh you poor thief. Go jump off a cliff.

Dalren

@TheIrishNinja: Yeah, it's not really effective. This is only because the scumbag pirates will do ANYTHING to steal.

Dalren

This is the most blindly informed fucked up, miss-aimed post I have ever read on Kotaku. Please keep blaming company greed and thus user dissatisfaction on Pirates, I mean.. we gotta blame someone right?

You have certainly lost this long-time reader.

Des

@Kajetan: What are they paranoid about then? Why do they need to change their business model?

Answers below:

They are paranoid about pirates, let's not forget that just because you're paranoid doesn't mean that they aren't out to get you.

They need to change their business model because of the emergence / increase in software piracy.

QED DRM is caused by pirates.

ThursdayNext

@Pandaschreck:

You mean that like the TSA it's a massive and ineffective waste of dollars?

Fixed it for you.

The only way to fix this is to have intrusive DRM knock a company out of business. (Non-Obtrusive DRM such as Stardock's I can tolerate)

arstal

@Dalren: that's a really backwards way of looking at things.

you're like my angry grandpa, when i ask why we gotta keep making more nukes we dont rightly need, know how to properly store/dispose of etc, he says if it wasnt for all the goddamn russians, we woudlnt need them. then, something unsavory about minorities, and off to sleep he goes. no one really likes that guy.

my point is, pointing at DRM - a system that not only doesnt serve its purpose to deter bootlegging, but instead, punishes legit consumers, thereby making bootlegging a more desirable option - is wrong on a number of reasons, one of which being, other companies are enjoying great success by handling piracy without DRM.

secureROM is responsible for poor DRM, they created/implemented it, and enjoy profiting from and spreading their filth by pointing at pirates to scare investors.

TheIrishNinja

@Dalren: QFT.

ThursdayNext

@Dalren:
"The whole reason DRM was invented in the first place was due to piracy."

Nope. DRM was invented, because of the paranoia of content providers, unable and unwilling to change their business model AND to please investors, who have no clue at all.

Kajetan

I can understand why people are up in arms over the three time only install, that's unacceptable (if it's correct), and rightfully condemnable.

@Des: This is the most blindly informed fucked up, miss-aimed comment I have ever read on Kotaku. Please keep blaming Kotaku and thus your dissatisfaction and not your inability to read, I mean.. we gotta blame someone right?

TearsandScreams

Bitch slapped by Will Wright

hulud86

@arstal: Yep. And as soon as they come up with an axe-proof lock the pirates will be planting C4 around the door or will drive up with a tank. DRM is flawed at a fundamental level in that the person who is supposed to have access to the game is also potentially the pirate. There's simply no way to make this model hack proof based on current encryption theory.

MattB

@Des: Sounds like you got dropped on your head as a child.

DukeOfPwn

What they need is some sort of tracking device that activates when you rip the CD to your computer. Then, if the files are distributed, they can track every computer it is sent to, thus catching any pirates who try to steal the game.

DukeOfPwn

It limits the number of times you can install? That's just stupid.

Frologic

@TheIrishNinja: But remember, companies like Vale and Blizzard make games that are heavily dependent on the internet. With most Blizzard games you're either going to want to play on the internet eventually (their RTS titles), or you HAVE to buy it legit to play on the real servers (WoW). With Valve, you have games like Team Fortress 2 that are also multiplayer only. This makes checking if people have a legit copy much easier.

So where does that leave companies that want to make a primarily single player game? They're kinda screwed.

Dalren

@ThursdayNext: i get all that, i do. this isnt me rationalizing piracy.
but in this particular example, you're justifying a lock will only work a few times, and then it keeps everyone out - even you. dont get me wrong, its secure alright, but now over time, it runs the very likely chance of failing its rightful owner.

also, to be fair, i woudlnt call anyone familiar with bittorenting and knowing of good seed sites as determined, patient or skilled, by default. it likely doesnt take much.

TheIrishNinja

@Des: Are you drunk or just stupid? Luke didn't mention anything at all about pirates.

dowingba

Well the DRM is a show stopper for me.

Was really excited (even bought the editor) but I won't be buying this till they get rid of the DRM. Its a security hole, it gives the access free access to add anything they want to it, and monitor use for any purpose (Hey you played game X we'll custom advertise game Y)

Bleh oh and for all those who say blame the pirates please use your brains a little. Its been already reported that spore is available on the torrent networks way before release. I really doubt that somehow EA is getting and all people are taking is the game....

So somehow game is pirated prior to release they point and say look so many pirates and use over the top DRM to stop the pirates ... >.>

I'm obviously missing something and Yes I am having a rant. I can point to many games who's entire enjoyment has been sapped by their DRM preventing me from playing games I actually bought and forcing me to find cracks for them. Its not fun and not something I should have to do when I buy a game.

/me stabs spore in frustration

kactusotp

@badasscat:
1. How do you know that they have no affiliation?
2. It's a question of morals not of affiliation I don't defend DRM because I am an EA fanboy (oxymoron?), I defend it because I despise theft.

ThursdayNext

Oh and for the people that don't know what things DRM can screw with (and you find out by trial and error)

-Dev tools, .net and directx sdk's, just in time debuggers etc you program so you are a pirate right?
-imaging tools - more obvious
-getright -you would not beleive how long this one took to find but yeah getright and fear don't mix
-drivers - 64 bit == pirate
-antivirus
-different cd drives - patch a game and it starts to detects your bog standard cdrom drive as a virtual (NWN & the expansion packs that wouldn't even install!)

And thats just my personal experience! I could go on, but I ask all the people defending DRM and blaming the pirates, nay challenge; show me one other industry where you could charge a customer for a product that didn't work and you know won't work for many people, and then NOT allow them to swap it back for a full refund?

You'd have a class action lawsuit.

kactusotp

"what isn't there's and justify it anyway they can."

I meant "theirs" sorry.

ThursdayNext

Regardless of how you feel about pirates, I find it amazing how many people are so quick to defend the corporate interests of a company for which they have no affiliation.

You're consumers. Act like it. EA isn't going to magically appear and start giving you a paycheck for supporting their DRM on Kotaku. You have your own interests to defend.

badasscat

@TheIrishNinja: I'll concede that the three time install and then having to call the (woefully inefficent) EA locksmiths is over the top, but the only other sensible implementation I've heard of is the 10day license / 5day renewal method, which caused an uproar because a lot of people didn't understand the system fully and a lot of people pleaded that they didn't have an "always on" connection.

@TheIrishNinja. Just to clarify, this next bit isn't aimed at you, I'm not accusing anyone commenting of stealing just expressing my feelings on the topic:
I do feel saddened that people who claim to be fans of an industry will openly steal from it. In a way I don't blame people, as a whole they will take the path of least resistance and until someone creates unobtrusive, reliable DRM I will have to accept that people will continue to take what isn't there's and justify it anyway they can.

ThursdayNext

Access to the online features included with Spore should be all the theft deterrent they need

LongDarkBlues

@dowingba: That is its sole purpose. It is there to deter theft. It's not there to generate column space on forums. Otherwise it would be a roaring success.

As @arstal: and @MattB: point out, locks are no good against the axes, C4 and Tanks of determined theives. This is done to make the idea of theft less attractive to "the man on the Clapham Omnibus" not to stop "Geeks and Otaku" who will find a method and excuse for theft no matter the safeguards put in place.

ThursdayNext

@kactusotp: "show me one other industry where you could charge a customer for a product that didn't work and you know won't work for many people, and then NOT allow them to swap it back for a full refund?"

This argument doesn't hold water. Apple (iTunes) is the only other significant player in an industry that caters for the purchase of IP without a physical product and to my kowledge they don't accept refunds.

If you're talking about returning box product, again your argument is not valid. Music and Movie vendors are not obliged to give you a refund if you purchase a movie in the wrong region, nor are they obliged to give you a refund on games because you have incompatible software on your PC, some/most will do it as a gesture of goodwill. By the same token, if you bring SPORE back to your retailer and tell them that it does not work, they are obliged (under UK statute) to give you a full refund.

You also have to bear in mind the nature of the business, if a buy a new car and decide to return it, the manufacturer can be fairly confident that I haven't made an identical copy of it. The same cannot be said of the data industry.

ThursdayNext

@ThursdayNext: But DRM has nothing to do with limiting theft.

dowingba

DRM treats legitimate buyers as though they're criminals. Instead of reducing piracy, it only increases it because PEOPLE DON'T WANT DRM.

Rubezh

@ ThursdayNext

'So what's the answer? Leave your door unlocked and hope that the world is suddenly overtaken by a wave of honesty, or buy a bigger, badder lock that is more inconvenient for you but makes life harder for those who would steal from you.'

but thats the point. DRM isnt like locking your door. Its like the seller of a product getting 1000 wads of chewing gum and sticking it all over your front door hoping it will keep it tightly shut.

Thieves can just walk up to the door and open it with absolutely no problem, it stops them for about 1 second as they go 'eww chewing gum' and then carry on nearly completely unaffected. The problem is the price paid for that 1 second of making the pirate hesitate is a MILLION times worse for the owner of the house who has to get horrible sticky gum all over everything else he buys. He may decide to take some new clothes into his house, (install new software) but the gum sticks to it and messes it up (DRM can cause many hardware problems).

Meanwhile the thieves are sitting happily in their houses with lovely gum free doors.

NovaBlack

What a great idea. I might go and do that myself.

Worse bit is you can only have one Spore account per game. So if there are two of you in the household that want to play, you better both fork out the £45.

itsmoirob

@robinhood_0:
You did break the law, but only because the law is broken. Current copyright law is stifling innovation and preventing end users from having any rights.

@ThursdayNext:
"Thieves came first not DRM. No one will (or rather should) dispute that."
I'll dispute that, or rather I'll dispute that intrusive and annoying copy protection predates reasonable (let alone easy) methods of copying without buying. Ever play Quest for Glory 2: Trial by Fire? The game (released 1990) has a city that is impossible to navigate. This is actually a copy protection feature, as the map was included with the manual. However even with the map, It's still very difficult to get around the place, to the point I couldn't find (using the map) several of the locations I needed to go. Most people didn't have internet access in 1990, and the Web wasn't around yet. Even if someone did have internet access, they still probably wouldn't know where to look. Why the disproportionate reaction? Why the draconian measures? Paranoia, clearly. (oh, and as an aside, one friend of mine who got it from BBSs back then simply made his own map and got along just fine)

And don't call people thieves, it's not stealing. Stealing would involve them being deprived of something they already had. They didn't have my money to begin with, and they have no inherent right to it.

(That said, the main reason I don't think I'll buy this is I can't bring myself to buy something that says EA on it, even if it is Maxis.)

Akin

@That1GuyNess:

You don't need the cd to play spore, why get a no-cd crack? Or is that something with the securom

Ranged360

@Kajetan:
Spot on

Ranged360

@badasscat:
Some people don't get it. When corporations start shipping products that are defective by design, this turns the capitalistic relationship between the OEM and the end consumer into an open war. If they do something like this, or what the MPAA and RIAA are doing, they aren't negotiating with the user, they're attacking the user.

@ThursdayNext:
"By the same token, if you bring SPORE back to your retailer and tell them that it does not work, they are obliged (under UK statute) to give you a full refund."
That's nice, but not everyone is from someplace where users have rights. Over here, people call consumer protection laws 'big government'. Now, if you don't mind, I'm going to read about the Bear Sterns buyout now. =P

Akin

My friend he bought spore through the ea download manager. Yet again as with Armed Assault the Spore Creature Creator and COUNTLESS other games. I sent him no cd cracks and a securom disabler. Why? Because securom fucked his computer. Now i'm not gonna lie i download games then buy them. If i don't like a game i got my fair try and i uninstall it and aren't assed with it again. If you saw the sheer number of games installed on my pc you'd automatically assume "Pirate pirate pirate...." and be out for blood. The thing is i OWN those games. Securom has caused me all sorts of hassle especially with god damn neverwinter nights. Securom has broken many a computer that i've fixed. It turned my 250gb hitachi server-class drive into nom noms as well as my 80gb server drive. Securom=bad for consumers. Good for company image and investors. I preordered spore from walmart since gamestop doesn't stock pc games. I downloaded it off mininova and installed it to play it early. I went to the store reinstalled it with my cd key and now play online. I still used a no-cd crack.

That1GuyNess

Cool. The only power consumers really have in the eyes of corporations is with complaints and not spending money on a product. The first can affect the second and thus this '1-starring' of the product is good - though only from people who have bought it.

You can't legitimately complain about something you haven't bought - at least not through official means... but there's no way i'm buying Spore with the DRM included so i'll just moan on message boards whenever the topic comes up.

Duoae

@ThursdayNext: But it doesn't limit theft. If its only use is to limit theft, and it doesn't do that, then it's useless, right?

You say you advocate DRM because you hate thieves. But I only ask, "what do thieves have to do with it?" DRM doesn't affect thieves in any way. Whether or not it's supposed to is another question entirely, of course.

dowingba

Hmm. I guess I won't buy Spore then. I don't like the idea of installing shit that'll mess with my computer.

kojirodensetsu

@gencid: I don't see how you could not care about the DRM. You only get 3 installs. Maybe if you never plan on reformatting or upgrading your computer ever, then I guess I could see why you wouldn't care.

kojirodensetsu

@noboard: @Blah8: Or how about you take the civilised approach and (not necessarily you two) and write a draft letter, start a petition and e-mail it to the relevant parties involved

And if it doesn't work then more drastic measures can be justified, jumping straight to illegal means hurts the cause more than helps it!

"I've always said you can get more with a kind word and a 2x4 than just a kind word"

SSJ4_Macd

If I bought the game for myself, I wouldn't care about the DRM. But obviously the web is full of hackers and cheap ass gamers. Spore certainly doesn't deserve this. Amazon should learn a lesson or two and not let anybody review a product if they didn't buy it at their website.

gencid

If this is what consumer need to do to tell tell publishers that the DRM is intrusive, offensive, and pisses off people who would normally buy the game, then so be it. Hopefully companies will start getting the picture that we hate this form of DRM and that they'll lose more than simply sales if it continues.

Blah8

Ok to the people saying DRM exists because of pirates, please quieten down. It doesn't stop pirates, so no profitable business will pay money for something that doesn't work.

DRM exists to control the legitimate user and create extra revenue streams. Download copy protected music files and lose them/license gets foobared, bang buy it again from us. Buy a game, install it X amount of times then bang "Buy another copy from us".

It's easy to get pirated copies of games, so most people who buy the games will possibly buy multiple copies because of the imposed limitations (especially if they really like the game).

Piracy is actually the best solution to getting rid of DRM, if the average Joe in the street realised how much nicer pirated software is there's every chance they'd stop buying legit software until the false restrictions are removed.

I've bought Spore, but I'll download the pirated version at some stage just so I know I'll always be able to install it.

noboard

will be posting my negative review in regards to the drm as soon as I recieve my copy "which I did order from amazon" and will probably be downloading a copy as well concidering I have re formated this pc like 3 times in as many months since I have been doing a bunch of upgrades.

redice

If you daemon tools or something similar, a second dvd drive, plan to upgrade your computer in any way more than once in the near future it is pointless buying any game with securom on it as all those things will stop any game you buy with securom on it from working.

dsmx

@ThursdayNext:

To extend your metaphor correctly, spore's (supposed) DRM is like having a lock to your door that you can only put on and remove 3 times even if you get a totally new door or move house. Its also a lock that pirates have the keys to days before the lock even reaches your door.

It's not a bad analogy, but your rendition of it lacked clarity.

Also in terms of your reference to a sort of "arms-race" going on between DRM and pirates, the fact of the matter is that pirates have so far (with very very few exceptions) been able to crack and play *anything* thrown at them through a voluntary, competitive and de-centralized collective that is very hard to stop. Its the equivalent (yay more metaphors) of having one man with a musket guarding your door against a mob of amoral children with crossbows.

In the vast majority of cases the mob will annihilate the lone rifleman, and even with bigger tougher guards, its generally only a matter of time before the mob burst through the door and ransack the interior.

ZhouYu

@Ranged360: If you start the game using the no-cd crack it starts without securom. I'd call it a no-securom crack but in general these cracks are called no-cd. It makes thing work smoother the game starts faster and it actually starts. Securom doesn't like my daemon tools or GOD FORBID I USE WINDOWS BLINDS or the community codec pack. Or lordy lordy no if i use a samsung dvd drive! Oh heaven forbid that. But using the no cd crack which i'm more than happy to email if spore isn't workin for you disables the drm and will actually make your spore work if it isn't.

That1GuyNess

This reminds me of the Rock Band reviews at Amazon UK.

Shinryoma

*rubs hands*

So will that stupid SecuROM company finally go down? It would be about time. Spore, cracked almost a week before release AND the people who buy it are pissed over SecuROM. Can it go any worse?

lumpi

Anyone who says 'SecuRom only hurts the pirates' or thereabouts: I am a legitimate user (not of Spore just yet, and maybe not ever now, but of video games in general). I use someone else's computer, and therefore am limited in the amount of software I can have installed at one time. Also, I have no control over hardware changes to the system. Therefore, SecuRom, with its hard-limit of '3 installs ever, period', hurts me. Am I, therefore, a pirate, despite being a legitimate user and purchaser of the thus-afflicted software?

OmegaX123

Good for them. I opted to get it from D2D, thinking I'd found the one place free from Spore's shitty system. 'Should have done more research; it's as bad as all the rest, plus it took half a day to download.

EA, I'm going to make this very clear: S T E A M or GTFO.

mwoody

@noboard: Spoken like a true person who has no idea what DRM is for.

Piracy as the solution. That's a real laugh.

Rebochan

"you may as well do it somewhere effective (ie the world's largest online retailer) as opposed to somewhere ineffective (ie your navel-gazing gaming messageboard of choice)."

Oooo, or how about telling everyone you're pirating the game in protest? Because not paying for a game really shows how willing you are to sacrifice things you want to make a stand against things you feel strongly about.

I haven't had any trouble with the DRM, but I haven't had to reinstall. But I just can't blame anyone who is boycotting (AND NOT PIRATING) the game over it. It's a really, really crappy system. All hail Stardock for not treating their customers like criminals.

Rebochan

Spore is a good game and I didnt know it had anti-pirating software till i read this article. I buy games and it usually turns out pretty good (online play and all). But the only time I got really upset at all these security features is when I wasn't buying games...funny :P

simmo

Personally, I have no problem at all with people slamming the game for its copy protection scheme. I think this is a great idea because outrage on sales sites and reducing consumer purchases is the only way to send EA a message. I've purposely avoided Bioshock and Mass Effect because of the DRM. I'm skeptical of Spore because it looks tedious instead of fun. The DRM is what kicks me off the fence of considering a sale in favor of keeping clear. I did actually pick up Mass Effect about a week ago, but it was free so that was an easy decision.

BigDragon

Oh, HELLOOOO, Gamespot!

Could you get any shittier gaming site? Well, yes, you just upped it:

[www.flickr.com]

Someone has another advertising deal to fulfil ("another" because of this: [arstechnica.com] ).

lumpi

It is pretty fucking depressing to know that after 2 more installations I'll have to download a crack as if i stole the damn thing. But I REFUSE to pay $50 for 3 more installs. Bull-fucking-shit.

CCCombobreaker

Heh, back in July Maxis told us that we could

1. Play without the disc
2. Install and play on multiple computers
3. Not have to deal with any authetntication except for invisably when we used the online features, or the first time we install/launch

Now whatever happened to all this?

Murrytmds

[www.crymod.com]

Read this post... pretty stomach churning incompetence from EA.

Thugmunk

@Crippl3: The reason I hate SecuROM in particular is that it refuses to let me install games that I buy. I bought Mass Effect for the PC and the installer kept hanging because of this poor excuse for "security."
It took me several hours to find a workaround and get it to work, and I still can't play the Bring Down the Sky add-on. Probably never will be able to, unless I download the cracked version of the game. Which is completely fucked up.
I have no problems with DRM that 1.)doesn't interfere with the game actually working, and 2.)doesn't put obnoxious restrictions on people who buy legit copies.

erlik

I do a clean install of Windows every couple of months. DRM like this would probably make me review a game very similarly.

kubevubin

The interesting thing here is that this DRM is not specifically designed just to combat piracy. Copy protection schemes that prevent games from being played without a disc inserted are intended to stop piracy. The install counter is designed to do something different: stop the used game market. To me, this represents something even more insidious from the developers than arcane CD checks ever were; it represents a clear effort to hinder the end-user's right of resale.

Whether or not the game includes CD checks, the fact that the game limits my ability to sell it again or make use of it repeatedly has ruined any desire I had to buy it.

Bravo to the, albeit childish, commenting on Amazon. Maybe this will help bring the issue to the forefront.

Beld

I'll wait for a non-SecuROM version, then. If they don't release one, I won't buy OR play the game.

Old school, right?

Toasticus

And I almost bought the special edition...

Looks like I wont be getting a game I was anticipating for YEARS out of principle...

Damn it. Damn it. Damn it.

The Amazing Exploding-Man

As a matter of fact, all game companies out there should abandon PC and go straight to consoles. Right now they are losing battles to pirates no matter what protection schemes they are using.

HobbaHobba

@Thugmunk: That's just incredible. Their utter refusal to send him a hard-copy version of the game is simply ridiculous. I won't go so far as to initiate a personal ban on all EA-published games, but I will absolutely never use their game download service. I'll be sure to send that link to all my coworkers as well. Thanks for posting that.

Toasticus

@Beld: This is correct. It is funny how people don't see it.

Turning everything into a "pirates" debate is exactly what EA hopes for.

They know they can't stop them. Yet, everyone sits here and argues day after day hour after hour about who is at fault and who is the most evil. But the arguing is just a distraction.

ehlaren

EA should have been smarter and release Spores on consoles only. PC games are the easy prey for pirates.

HobbaHobba

@HobbaHobba: PC ports are generally easy money since developers use PCs to develop games in the first place. The most you would ever see is a mass switching from PC to consoles for lead development platform, and that's kind of going on right now anyway.

Toasticus

Very sad. I guess game companies don't learn.

If we don't learn from our mistakes, we are bound to repeat them...

Spoony Bard

@lumpi: I'm sorry, all I heard in your post was 'BAWWWW! BAWWW! GameSpot wouldn't let me post a whine about SecuROM masquerading a review! Censorship!"

Dude, you know they're going to delete those Amazon reviews too. I'm sure more people will cry censorship, but you have to actually review the game in the review, not make a few token comments and then scream at SecuROM. See, this is the other reason we still have SecuROM crap - because nobody does anything constructive about it.

Rebochan

@HobbaHobba: Really? Bioshock sold 2.2 million copies. 1 million on PC. Now where exactly does the PC become "irrelevant" as a platform?

lumpi

Excuse me, I'm going to go cackle madly. I find this entire situation quite hilarious.

Sheogorath

I bought it last night and me and my girlfriend are loving it. For some reason, she doesn't seem to bothered by the Securerom. 5 stars from Lori.

ScottG13

@Toasticus: Fair point. Sometimes, games need to be reviewed as products as well. In fact, I think every game needs an equivalent set of "product" reviews.

Chupakun

@Patient: I hate software pirates as much as the next guy. Probably moreso than the next guy since I actually work as a game developer. I can pull up some of my old, vitriol-laden comments if you want. But as a gamer and a consumer I will not buy a game locked by SecuROM because it's shitty software that can cause installation and hardware failures.

Toasticus

@Rebochan: They better not take those Amazon reviews down. On Amazon people are reviewing the product, not just the game. They would be fine with someone saying that the packaging for a DVD is god-awful, for example.

Toasticus

@lumpi: sounds like wishful thinking. When someone says the PC is an irrelevant platform, the first thought that comes to mind is he probably doesnt get enough allowance $$ to upgrade his pringles and/or doesn't know how. There are more games available on the PC than anything else because its what programmers use to make games. *click* compile. *click* upload.

cyr3n

Although many are pissed here about the DRM or have pirated a copy (you know it's true). I bought the game, I'm loving every minute it, really fun. Although if it ever does come to me reinstalling it after 3 times, I will just contact Maxis/EA, if they refuse, I'll just tell the manager that I refuse to buy any copy again from EA/Maxis and I am going to go download a copy of Spore on a torrent site. What's funny is it isn't illegal, I own a legit copy so I can, and then they can go f*** themselves.

Smash88

Wait, let me get this straight.
A group of people are down voting Spore on a major Retail site saying that they will not buy Spore, because the DRM features make it more difficult to steal it? It looks like Will Wright has unknowingly caused the evolution of irony as well.

I just noticed that someone is so upset about this that it has actually now provoked them to deface his Wikipedia page with the following comment added as well:

"He is best known as the original designer of computer games such as SimCity and The Sims. He has recently finished developing the evolution game Spore. The mismanaged release of this game has cost him any and all respect from the gaming consumer."

Wow you kids in the warez scene sure showed him!

Patient

@cyr3n: It's funny how they frown on pirates yet do everything in their power to ensure that the pirates are seen in a favourable light. I, for one, am not buying a product that I can install only three times. I would hardly feel bad about getting a pirated version in this case.

Chupakun

@lumpi: That's a bit surprising. Where do you get those sales figures?

Toasticus

Insult-to-injury: installed it on Vista 32 and it wouldnt load. Hopefully won't count against me as a full install.

cyr3n

@lumpi: Could have been much more than 1 million copies **without** pirated copies. In business field, they call it "opportunity cost"

HobbaHobba

I bought Spore and it annoys me that I'm limited to 3 installations when the dude that pirates it has infinate installs. Look, I have 8 computers! Do I use them all at once? No. But while stuff is rendering or compiling on my primary machine(s).. I'd like to be able to play it leisurely on a secondary, or tertiary machines without a hassle.

In a lot of ways, DRM is similar to gun ownership laws... It punishes law-abiding citizens and by design, promotes piracy. I'm pretty sure a sizely percentage of so-called software pirates are actually legitimate licensees of software who've exceeded the number of installs or misplaced their SN's.

cyr3n

@dowingba: Kinda like gun control.

SeraphX2

@lumpi: Sony makes SecuRom, so it's very unlikely

Shin-san

@mwoody: Agreed, if I hadn't preordered this already.. I'd have got it through STEAM in a heartbeat.

cyr3n

@ThursdayNext:

A dvd clearly has its region marked on the back of the box. If I buy a region 4 dvd and have a region 4 dvd player than that dvd will work, regardless of who the manufacturer of the player was. When I buy a game if I meet all the requirements on the box then it should run.

It should not work depending on which patch the game is at. (as secure rom version changes) it should not sit and sniff for software that has nothing to do with the function of the game. My DVD's do not report an error because I have a VHS player hooked up to my entertainment system even though that could be used for piracy. They don't call home ever time I watch a movie to tell the production company the kind of movies I like, which bits I skip and if I make use of special features.

There is copy protection and there is invasion of privacy, there is a considerable difference.

I don't know how long you have been playing games for but take it from the guys who have been suffering this for decades, it never has stopped piracy and has only hurt the people who actually buy the games. Its why I buy more for my console than my pc these days.

And no, in Australia, a pc game can not be returned if it has been taken out of the shrink wrap unless the discs are defective, and only then for a direct trade. (*Yes EB is different but that is thier internal policy and not consumer enforceable)

Cheers - Kactus

kactusotp

Oh SecureROM is in this game? Yeah, not buying. I like my PC how it is right now. I have no desire to deal with the problems SecureROM is going to create for me.

axiomatic

@Patient: You're not getting it straight. Spore was cracked a week ago. It's not difficult at all to download a free, non-DRM copy from the internets.

They made it difficult to install the game for PAYING customers, that's the cynicism of this all.

lumpi

"I still don't get why folks hate DRM'd games so much"

Maybe because you don't understand it. This DRM only allows you to install the game 3 times. So if you upgrade your system a lot or re-image every few months (which most power-users do) then you're out $50 on the 3rd re-image.

Since it must be activated online on each play, whenever EA takes the servers down, you cannot play the game.

And worst of all, the installer runs in the administrator space so it can do ANYTHING to your machine that it wants and you have NO power to stop it. Have you ever heard of rootkits?

No thanks.... piracy is the only way to go on this one.

thund3rstruck

@SSJ4_Macd: Yes, and posting reviews critical of a product does not fall under that definition. No one is causing harm to a computer or network, or threatening to. Unless your cyber terrorism remark was directed at EA and not the critical reviews, in which I would agree with that. I agree with what arstal said regarding picketing Walmart...it's not terrorism to protest something that people see (and rightly so) as an injust product.

tenaciousmonkey

This is lame. Spore is a great game and doesn't deserve this treatment. People blow DRM out of proportion all the time. Of course it doesn't stop the pirates who hack it and put it up on the Internet. But it does stop less technical folks from sharing every game they own with everyone they know. Make no mistake, it stops some forms of piracy to a degree.

ReadNLearn

There is nothing wrong with DRM and as a publicly traded company, EA must put DRM or their shareholders will sue them. However, nothing is acceptable about draconian DRM which Spore has. DRM should be in place to stop casual people from copying the game for a friend. Hardcore pirates are going to pirate the game no matter what and is often cracked before release date - thus DRM does nothing to stop them.

Spore's DRM is just EA being ultra-greedy vs legit customers, trying to get them to rebuy Spore a year down the road when the game will no longer install after buying a new PC/adding new hardware to old PC/reformating system to clean a system/etc.

jrcbandit

Thumbs up for this anti-DRM effort...good work people.

thor79

WHAT? Hang on, let me get this straight... you PAY full-price for the game, and they see fit to essentially take away your ownership of the game should you have to reinstall more than 3 times?

Once you pay for the software, they should not have any control as to what you do with it, besides pirating. Isn't limiting the installs after you pay for this illegal or something?

Can't wait for the EA and Spore lawsuits to start coming in.

Superlocke

I hate the DRM on Spore. First time I started it? The 'required security module cannot be activated' message from Securom - error 5016. Great. That's the wonderfully fun error due to having used filemon since last reboot (I'm a programmer, their use is part of what I do). The only way to fix it.. reboot. As soon as I start doing any programming work, it'll put the machine in a state where I can't play Securom-protected games until I reboot again. I wasn't running it while trying to load a Securom game, but it detects having /ever/ loaded it since last reboot and blocks all your legally owned games.

It's ridiculous. I PAID for the game! Why am I getting a lower quality product than the pirates got? It makes me feel like a chump - it cost me more, it released 5 days later, and it requires constant reboots. Why can't I buy the pirated version?

Securom promotes piracy. The pirates have the copy protection removed the same day of release, so the only people it's harassing are legal owners.

Kral2

Never had an issue with Securom nor any form of activation installation problem. I know and willingly have Securom on my PC from Bioshock and has not hampered any function of my machine.

Game is amazing, worth the $50 and my time here is just to give the game it's true rating of 5 stars. A real review of this title deserves multiple pages and your best bet is to pick up a current issue of a gaming magazine or take a peak at many popular game review compiling websites.

I spent 4 hours just in Cell and Creature stages alone (and I'm still not on tribal!). Why? Not because I'm an idiot, it's because I'm having fun just enjoying a title I have waited so long for.

DRM sucks, but the games still is amazing. If you choose to steal the game, you are forfeiting your right to complain as no game company in their right mind will listen to a thief in their business decisions. More so, the standard person off the street will willingly walk in to a game store and just buy this title. You are making a fuss that will never be registered on any scale unless you quite frankly just stop buying the game.

And if you haven't bought the game, you should not be reviewing it.

Good day, Amazon.

My Review for Spore. 5/5 Stars. Screw whiners. Internet bitching will solve NOTHING.

Ken