is it wishful thinking to hope that the exclusive deal falls apart because of this so VC can make NFL games again? Madden football really isn't that good. Football for people that don't know about real football made by people that claim to know real football.

Striderhayasa - Phillyyakk on PSN and Live.

The exclusive NFL license is damn near antitrust to begin with, let alone anti-capitalist.

The NFL could be selling their likeness to any company they see fit, and that should be fiscally more beneficial for them when there's competition between buyers.

Arttemis

@captainapplesauce:

Football players didn't make big bucks until the late 70's/early 80's. A lot of Hall of Famers from the 60's and 70's only made like $20k/yr, and their bodies were left a crippled mess. Read up about it before throwing in a pithy statement.

Yeah, if Randy Moss whined 30 years later, that's one thing. These guys are no Randy Moss's (not trying to single him out specifically)

arstal

@captainapplesauce:

Haha, no doubt.

dead_red_eyes

Aw... poor mistreated football players. Yeah, they're all hurting for the money.

captainapplesauce

This is to be expected. The NFL forgot their old retired players and only now, is trying to broker deals with them for luxuries, like say, health insurance and pensions.

SnakesSolids

So is this the reason Take 2 didnt make another All Pro or was that because of sales?

parad0x360

I'd be disappointed if the retired players won this lawsuit... all EA did is what any sports game developer does for a roster they don't have rights to, they have a database of all players, they try to get the rights, and for players they can't get rights to they change the name/appearance of the player (nhl2k even changes the numbers)... EA wasn't pulling some scam to prevent paying those retired players, classic teams is a bonus feature more than anything as its usually just slapped on rosters without the rules/play style/equipment being changed to how things used to be, and if they don't get the rights they use fake player names/appearances which should be legal IMO... I know there was an article on joystiq which suggested this is not legal; if true A) it sucks B) there are hundreds of other games that have done similar things... heck even Puzo Estate/Coppolla/Paramount should be sued for the Godfather as the singer in there was based off a real life one (either Bennet or Sinatra, not sure)

VedaJibo

@tyddraig: there is no point in putting out products without making money.

EVIL_V2

@VedaJibo:

There's a big difference here, EA intentionally scrambled the likeness to avoid paying obligations. They didn't have the rights because they didn't want to pay the rights.

Just because you change the name or the look doesn't absolve you of your legal obligations. Everyone hates a cheap knockoff of a product, so why doesn't this count? The players are owed, and it's likely a small amount compared to the money Madden pulls in on a yearly basis.

Honestly, how anyone can say what EA did was okay is baffling. These are players who gave their careers for sport and had people "negotiating" a bad deal intentionally behind their backs to ensure Take-Two wouldn't give them their proper due. It doesn't affect you in anyway, but it does affect their ability to make money based on their career and history. Isn't that just common sense for anyone?

Thunder-1

Wait so EA ruined more lives? for christ sake will this company just go die somewhere now please.

Yes we know that companies try to make short cuts so they can earm more money for themselves, the worlds a greedy place. But actually going behind peoples back to keep money is just pittiful and this compnay deserves everything it gets negative, postitive things should be stripped of and thrown into the fires of hell!)

tyddraig

@VedaJibo: Um EA and the union colluded to get the players a lot less money then they would have.

It's about 2 companies working together to screw their competition and the people they are supposed to represent.

I have a feeling EA won't be touched by this suit. Only ttwo can can win that one. however the union should be bent over a lawyer backwards.

Techguy1138

Hey, what precedent would this set for NCAA athletes? Those guys get dick and they don't scramble anything. They just don't use the names.

boringjob2

@Striderhayasa - Phillyyakk on PSN and Live.: We can ALWAYS dream....

boringjob2

@undefined: I'm gonna incline in saying sales. The game was in the bargain bin and being fire-saled within a few weeks of originally being released.

Proz

@arstal: agreed, the league makes mega bucks and have left the oldies in the dust. but i think this lawsuit is bs because they have changed everything but the time of service and stats. now stats are part of the nfl and not the individual, but as far as time of service i dunno.

EVIL_V2

@tyddraig: "Ruined lives" seems a bit much. Cheated out of money, probably, but it's hard to imagine that withholding royalties from people who made multiple millions each year is capable of ruining a life. Yes, it's underhanded and unfair. But I don't think EA could do anything to ruin their lives.

Maldron

@Thunder-1: They could do like the rest of us and get a university degree and not expect a 3 year career to pull them threw the rest of their life.

sereal

What's funny is the retired pros must be using the internet since I seem to recall this "only use stats" argument being thrown around by NFL if I remember correctly where they tried to sue the pants off of fantasy sports websites.

Zombie16[THC]

EA for godsake. Evil again

excel_excel

@parad0x360: I'd say it was part of the reason. 2K sports was known to be working on the game for a while, which could be part of the reason it looks so dated. They more than likely finished the majority of the game years ago, but had trouble getting the names and likenesses because of the EA closed door deal, and had to spend effort getting the players individually.

That hurt them because more time passed from their last release, and they weren't able to get the number of players they initially wanted, and release an inferior product as a result.

peacefuloutrage

@captainapplesauce:

Yeah that's a terrific attitude. I hope someday you get nailed by a 300 + pounder for 16 weeks for 10 years and see what kind of shape you are in.

Many players ARE hurting for money you dumbshit. Most NFL players are lucky to have a 3 year career and often end up with injuries that plague them for the rest of their lives. They have families just like everyone else who they have to take care of and it's not like they can just go work at Shakey's for 6.50 now can they?

Honestly, how anyone can poke a finger at these players and suggest they don't deserve it is mind blowing. If you were part of something like this and that company was making billions and you weren't seeing a penny, you wouldn't do the same thing? Please.

Thunder-1

What did the union get out of this? They had to get some compensation for going out of their way to get EA the deals? If they did, then prepare for a huge fallout that will change video games and how licenses are secured forever.

JFetch

@Arttemis:

[en.wikipedia.org] : Antitrust law. Laws that in effect promote free trade and competition. Are you sure you're not looking for the word "Monopoly"? "Cartel"?

Anticapitalist. Yeah, because negotiating for years, making offers and paying oodles of "teh moneyz" goes against the very fabric of capi... Wait, what?
[www.gamespot.com]

You can't fault a licensor like the NFL for accepting a deal they seem to think is best for them and then cry foul because they didn't act in "the spirit of capitalism".

And if I understand it correctly:
- The NFLPA made a deal with the Hall of Fame for $400K a year (which is significantly below market rate).
- Take2 backs off.
- Ergo, Take2 wasn't willing to counteroffer, go over the $400K, 'which is significantly below market rate'?

Either the NFLPA screwed over the Hall of Fame, or Take2 was going to screw them over. And of course, the cook determines the meal: In other words, the licensor set the terms of the deal, not the licensee.
And I don't see anything implying EA in any way, besides complying with the License Agreement. Look at the wording of the emails. "EA owes me a huge favor...", "Clay and Joe's negotiation of these discounted terms was a significant contribution to EA as you more than likely would have paid..." Like it or not, EA has nothing to do with most of it.

Come to think of it, firstly, haven't I seen this movie before?
[en.wikipedia.org]

Secondly: Real Football = Soccer (or whatever you Americans call it!).

Gaff

@boringjob2: College athletics is a different beast because student athletes are not paid anything to begin with, nor are they allowed to make money off of their likenesses. The contractual agreements and rules set by the NCAA are not the same as those set by the NFL or NFL Player's Association.

Lezard

@sereal: Most college football players that enter the NFL these days are either four-year students that graduate or three-year students that could complete their degrees after another year's worth of college. There are actually specific rules that prevent college players from entering the NFL draft any earlier than this.

Lezard

@parad0x360: No, this started back in 2002, when Take Two was allegedly trying to get a game off the ground that never came to fruition. This was well before All-Pro Football was even considered.

Lezard

@Lezard: But if a court decides that the retired players are due compensation, surely the "student" athletes would be covered by this agreement.

I mean it's a multi-billion dollar business and the main workers aren't compensated anywhere near fairly. College degrees are expensive, but not that expensive.

boringjob2

@sereal:

And for the record, what good is a university degree when you can barely even get up in the morning? Honestly, why anyone would enjoy taking the food of these guys mouth is staggering.

Thunder-1

@sereal:

Or you could understand the work they do and expect them to be properly compensated for it? As in life, some of them do have potential careers outside of sports and many don't.

Your statement is completely ignorant by the way. A university degree does not guarantee lifetime employment, but I bet whatever career you went into, if you were forced to retire from that profession after only a few years you'd be expecting compensation from your likeness or work provided.

Thunder-1

@Zombie16[THC]:
Just because they're retired doesn't mean they're old goats or live in caves, y'know.

beem

I can understand why these retired players are so upset. I don't play Madden, but why couldn't EA just pay the $5000 per player? They get name recognition on the box, which spurs sales, and they get fewer lawsuits. Their legal department must be even bigger then Sirius Cibernetics Corp.s.

Acebuckeye13

@Sheogorath:
Oh, wait, they'd have to pay Lucasfilm for the rights, ya?
Well, I guess they can just change the title and a few notes and it'll be alright.

Sheogorath

Why doesn't EA just change their corporate jingle to 'The Imperial March' and get it over with?

Sheogorath

This isn't "damn near anti-trust" It IS anti-trust. But no one says anything because it;s a video game. The NFL i jsut as guilty though as they pursued the idea of exclusive rights. This isn't about money (well to some it may be) this lawsuit is about making a point. EA are anti-competition. The exclusive rights thing removed any incentive for EA to make better games, and that's why they did it. I've been boycotting EA for a few years now. I will never buy a new EA product ever. And I hate football games. It's the concept that sickens me.

Mr.Waffleton

@Thunder-1: [kotaku.com] , Oops. I just did. Oh well.

And again: The ones requesting the scramble were the heads of multimedia of NFL Players. Reasoning: The License Agreement only covers the current rosters. If the licensee (EA) wants to keep the license (and judging by Madden's sales record, umm, yeah, they did), they have to agree with the licensor (NHL and affiliates). If EA says "We'd like to use the retired players too", the NHL can always walk away and go to another developer.
Complicit, very likely. Evil as in forcing overtime on their workers, no.

Gaff

@BallPtPenTheif: Also, the way he talks about EA owing them favors sounds like something the mob would say.

JFetch

"I was able to forge this deal with [the Pro Football Hall of Fame] that provides them with $400K per year (which is significantly below market rate) in exchange for the HOF player rights."

That right there is the damaging tidbit. The scrambling of player characteristics is one thing but Clay Walker openly stating that he went out of his way to secure a below market rate for the people he is meant to represent is pretty bad.

Not only does it demonstrate his failure in representating his clients but it all demonstrates anti-competitive business practices. The only weird part (as someone else stated) is why he would go out of his way to do this.

BallPtPenTheif

@Mr.Waffleton: Are you serious? Because if you are, then I'm afraid that you might want to go and obtain some common sense somewhere. The NFL doesn't have to let every game company that wants to make a product based off of their trademark do so. And so long as the players go along with that, then it's completely fine. It's just like any other company purchasing the rights to a movie; they're the only ones who can make games based off of that property. By your "logic", that would be a monopolistic set-up. But if that were the case, then anybody who owns any kind of intellectual properties or trademarks would be complicit in a monopoly.

Now, if EA was the only company that made football games, period, and kept every other company from making football games, period, then that would be a monopoly. But since EA specifically makes NFL games, it's not a monopoly.

Sorry, but people who say things like that just really annoy me. Anyways, moving along to the post...

Doesn't surprise me should it turn out to be true. The NFLPA has never been very concerned for the well-being of retired players, at least under Gene Upshaw. This is certainly an instance where free-trade has been restricted, again if it turns out to be a legitimate accusation. Because it's about bargaining for the likeness of a retired player and a person, which should be the property of that individual, as opposed to the rights to portray an organization such as the NFL and all of its concomitant teams and contractually obligated players.

AvidAbey

@spectralpulse:

Are you retarded? It's for ALL the players not one.

Thunder-1

@Zombie16[THC]:
I don't know if the NFL had a similar case, but MLB attempted to sue fantasy sports places, saying that the statistics were the property of Major League Baseball. They thankfully lost, since stat-nerds, journalists, fantasy degenerates, and basically everyone on the planet not named MLB would have been screwed.

Nik in NOLA

Another example of the NFLPA being the absolute worst sports union in all of sports. They're worse than the NHLPA, which essentially broke. NFL players have no rights compared to other players. Guaranteed contracts don't happen, and teams can cut a 10 year vet in the middle of a 7 year contract with very little consequences. The way they treat anyone from about 1988 and before is just shameful. NFL players weren't getting the big bucks until the 80s (even then, took until the 90s), and many players had second jobs in the offseason. "WAH WAH THEY SHOULD DO IT FOR FREE." Look at the amount of money in pro sports. It wasn't fair that owners would take 95% of the cash and distribute the rest to the players for the bulk of the NFL's history. Unlike baseball (favorite saying: The owners screwed the players for 100 years, the players screwed the owners for 25), football's PA has been headed by an ineffective union equivalent of an Uncle Tom. Gene Upshaw's control of the union has been criminal neglect at best, and this is yet another example of the overall ineffective of the NFLPA.

Its one thing to just put up vitals and ratings (granted, I'm questioning as to how long this will go on). Its quite another to have your union collude with a designer in order to get a lowball offer for HOF player likenesses. This is just disgusting.

Nik in NOLA

400k a year? With this number i really find it hard to side with the players. There Pampered, almost 7 family's could live comfortably off that a year. Maybe more. (400,000 / 60,000)

spectralpulse

@Gaff: What does the National Hockey League have to do with this?

cudthecrud

@arstal: agreed

rowecl

@_DiGiTaL_: They aren't suing EA. They are suing Players, Inc.

JFetch

@Gaff: Except in this case they selfishly gave EA the "rights" on a lowball offer, taking away money for people who genuinely could use it and players who deserve it. It's in the interest of licensing agreements to ensure they get the best deal.

This was selfish plain and simple, they ensured players could would not be given the best offer they could get, it's a violation of terms and agreements and gives a black eye to those who brokered the deal.

Again, how can ANYONE think what EA did was okay?

Thunder-1

On his blog, Jeff Nixon talks more about how Players, Inc took most of the money from the deals, and made retired players sign new contracts when they already had contracts. It sounds like head of Players, Inc is just a crook.

[theplayer-38.blogspot.com]

JFetch

@Nik in NOLA:

Well said, anyone here would be crying foul over the same result. If your company (or former as it is) was making untold billions AND profiting on your likeness, I guarantee each and everyone of you reading this would be asking for compensation.

The NFL treats players like dirt, especially "legends" of the game. People seem to think every player makes millions when the reality is you are lucky if even 15% of players will ever seen more then a million their entire playing career.

Thunder-1

EA needs to pay up!!! We got robbed out of more NFL 2k games cause of the EA BS

_DiGiTaL_

Why does this story remind me of the Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back?

Trowble (XBL/PSN)

@AvidAbey: EA owns rights every official league in the US.

Cueil

@excel_excel: we were all just starting to like them

Cueil

@Thunder-1: someone is going to get it hardcore for this... I think the Union is in some real trouble... this is the kind of thing they are NOT suppose to do... it's the kind of thing they are suppose to stop.

Cueil

@Thunder-1: No matter what the fact that EA didn't call them out on this makes them also responsible. They could have had competition again, but the Player's Union(wtf I'd disband a union that did this to me) fucked them over. The purpose of a union is to not allow this to happen.

Cueil

@Thunder-1: exactly, that's how I understood it. it's 400k total cost, not 400k per player.

Striderhayasa - Phillyyakk on PSN and Live.

I don't like madden football and EA as much as the next guy, but these football players are being little bitches. They want a piece of the pie just because a game feature their stats but not their likeness. Don't they sign away some rights when they join the football lleague? They don't deserve a penny, greedy bastards.

pikpikjuice

@Thunder-1: don't a majority of them make under a mil? I know alot make the min... something like 350k. It may seem like a lot but these guys get beat up pretty harsh and provide entertainment for more people a year than any movie ever has.

Cueil

@spectralpulse: You are the one of the dumbest people I have ever seen post on here (and that is saying a lot).

Most of the players involved in this have been retired WAY before the salaries got any where near where they are now. Most of them didn't even make $400,000 a year from football. NONE of them were pampered (the old school players). Most had jobs in the off season because they couldn't feed their families on football alone. That is one of the main reasons why the Players Association was formed. Players were getting paralyzed with no kind of medical coverage or any kind of pension at all. It was originally formed to improve the quality of life for retired/injured players and now you see them colluding with corporations to screw them over!

You only know the NFL for what is is today. The millionaires who whine and hold out for ridiculous contracts. If it weren't for the Hall Of Famers that came before them paving the way at the cost of their broken, permanently disabled bodies, the "pampered" "T.O."s and "Ocho-Cinqo"s wouldn't exist.

Mr.SithNinja

@Bokusatsu_Tenshi: It looks like it is 400K total, not per player.

rocsflight

Corporation business as usual.

I was going to say about big guys abusing little guys... but 400K a year?
Out of my league

Bokusatsu_Tenshi

@boringjob2: No, no it would not. The NCAA is body that controls organized student athletics in all American colleges and universities, including public universities funded by state governments. The NFL and the NFL Players Association are private organizations and are thus not in the same category as the NCAA.

Lezard

I don't understand what the difference between this is and ANY other sports game is which doesn't have true likenesses like All Pro Football, NHL 2K (for historic players), older Tennis games which had names that were slightly off like "Richard Federik" for Roger Federer, "Andy Abassi" for Andre Agassi or something ridiculous like that, NCAA Football (where none of the players can have their names), etc

VedaJibo

I'm not sure who's side to take...

EA will always be EA...
But do foot ball players really need more money?
Maybe he invested his money in the stock market XP

Bluesnow222

@captainapplesauce: Epic fail dude. These guys that played in the 60s and 70s have more chronic health issues than most. They played a much rougher game in a time before hot tubs, advanced therapies and little stuff like comprehensive health insurance. Money owed is money owed. They acted in good faith and lived up to the agreement they signed. The NFLPA and PI did not. At this point it is more about the apparently intentional end-a-round of the GLA's to erase any possible chance they MIGHT see some payment than anything else. let me put it this way, Can I take a picture of you for free, sell it to someone of 1,000,000 and then pay you 600 bucks to make you fell better?? If so, I can be on your doorstep tomorrow.

Voodoo77

OK hold on a second here if you sue the Union that is supposed to help the players wont you take money away from the people you are trying to help? This is like sueing your local school district it only hurts the kids.

onepoker

@AvidAbey: I have to disagree with you avidabey- I think it would be fair if the NFL offered licenses that had to be purchased but that were not exclusives. We would get far better football games from that system. There would only be a few games made because of the cost but they would be far better games. The NFL is a monopoly protected by the government and I am ok with that but they need to open up the other parts of the business to competition.

onepoker

@Maldron: one positive aspect of the EA game is it keeps these former players in the minds of fans. How many now make their living through public speaking or other short event paydays. every bit of publicity helps. I imagine this helps these players more than the union. 400,000 divided among all the retired players cant add up to much.

onepoker

@Gaff:
Hold on. Football = Football, Soccer = Soccer (or what eva u call it), and Pluto = A Planet. end of story.

d4rlp3nc1l

@onepoker: It might be more fair, and we might (well, more like almost certainly would) get better games, but I feel it's the NFL's right to decide.

And the NFL is not protected by the government.

AvidAbey

@Cueil:
I didn't. I've just been hating them more.

ViciousViper

@Trowble (XBL/PSN): Because what happened to Jay and Silent Bob can actually happen in real life and not just another movie.

Im just worried what will happen if the Retired Players (Jay and Silent Bob in this case) actually won the case...

Remember how everyone thought that Bluntman and Chronic Sucked?!

kingme

@Bluesnow222:
As stated several times prior, there's a complete difference with how the NFL runs contracts now compared to anything before 1993. Players had even fewer rights, they had no bargaining positions, and they didn't land bloated contracts. Even if they did get huge contracts, they often got screwed out of money for some reason or another. Many of the rank-and-file players moonlit at Insurance offices or car dealerships as an advertising gimmick to make ends meet in the offseason. Pro sports are a totally different monster since free agency and collective bargaining, because now more money is going to the players whereas before the vast percentages stayed in the owners box.

Brief history on free agency: [bleacherreport.com]

@onepoker:
That's just a terrible analogy. It forces them to do something and correct a wrong. Better for them get pulled into court kicking and screaming than to subject future generations (kids/unions/shareholders/whatever else) to further abuses. You sue them now so next time it goes up, they won't screw your vets.

Nik in NOLA

Google: "Don't Do Evil"

EA & NFL Union: "Do Evil!"

~Otaku-Man

OtakuMan24

@AvidAbey: actually it is protected by the govenment they are exempt from anti trust suits as a special law was passed just for them. Otherwise billings might sue saying their local team should be allowed to compete in the superbowl.

onepoker

ugh, everybody wants a cut. I love seeing the NFL, Baseball and the NBA price themselves right out of the market. The average working-class guy can't afford seats to a game anymore and now they're going for video games and anything else their greedy hands can put a price tag on.

Cell9song