Earlier this morning Kotaku’s very own Seamus Byrne discussed Modern Warfare 2 and the Oslo attacks with Jim Wallace from the ACL. Just in case you missed it, we thought we’d post the video here.
Let us know what you think in the comments below.
Today On Sunrise: Seamus And Jim Wallace Of The ACL Discuss Oslo And Modern Warfare 2
Comments
200 responses to “Today On Sunrise: Seamus And Jim Wallace Of The ACL Discuss Oslo And Modern Warfare 2”
Translation:
Seamus: Here are some logical points.
Jim: Here is some zealous hate speak.
Reporter: I didn’t even understand how to pronounce Kotaku, let alone what we are arguing about.
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Jim Wallace, keepin it classy!
http://thewhitebull.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/jesuslovesyou.jpg
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bit disturbing, really. the extremist painting “those people” as extremists (that was the point, right?).
Discussionst start with “these people” never end pleasantly.
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Yeah that was very childish really. Seamus was polite enough to mention the ACL and Wallace by name. Wallace just kept referring to Seamus as “these people” as if all gamers are now terrorists. I like how Wallace just shrugged off the comment from Seamus that ‘if games are to be questioned in the manifesto, than so should Christianity’, by just saying that ‘real christians who believe in the fundamentals of Christianity wouldn’t do this’ (the terrorist act). Well then doesn’t that same rationale apply to gamers? Real gamers who believe in playing games for enjoyment, wouldn’t murder 90+ innocent people?
Also, Ku-tack-u??? lol, way to do your homework Mel/Sunrise…
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I’ve sent Sunrise and email telling them exactly what I think of them giving Jim Wallace a soapbox to try and exploit an act of terrorism in order to further their agenda.
He calls Seamus’s statement a cheap attempt to distract from the serious issues. That pretty much sums up the entire debacle.
The raging hypocrite.
As for his 112 academics, how come they haven’t been cited in the past?
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Most likely because they do not want us finding out that there are only 112 papers and nearly all of have Graig Anderson on them.
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I imagine that they’re a little like Michelle Bachman’s Noble laureates that support creationism. Completely fictitious.
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So wait… If this guy played mass effect 2 – does that mean he learnt how to build a fully working normandy in his backyard? If so i might head over there and steal it now…
Must… Supress… Rage…
What annoys me so much about his argument is that he expressly states just because a few people react badly to something, it needs to be banned. I’m sure if you compared violence comitted as a result of videogame influence to violence committed in the name of the bible, the result would sway pretty heavily in one direction.
If we follow the ACL’s logic, we would need to ban a whole range of things that certain individuals have adverse reactions to. This is not the answer.
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Stopped by the sunrise website to check that out myself. Seems like a fair number supporting “these people” with a scattering of ban video game posts.
Then again it is rather hard to tell as the sunrise site wants to keep the discussion to the same level as the video above. All posts are truncated about about 300 characters. About as useful as twitter for presenting a valid and concise argument/opinion
Gotta say Seamus, that was a pretty shallow attempt at laying the blame back at the ACL in a way. I thought we as gamers were above the finger pointing on our side of the debate. I know you didn’t have a lot of time but surely you could have come up with a getter argument than “Well, you Christians are at fault too!”
Having said that, I’d really like to know who these 112 “experts” are that the ACL kept bringing up. We know there’s countless studies that prove the opposite to what he was claiming, so I really want to know who these 112 are and what exactly they are saying.
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+1. He should have focused on evidence. Documented evidence.
That said, it was never going to be a fair debate, so whatever.
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Seamus went out of his way to say he didn’t blame Christians, but if the ACL was going to start blaming video games, it was important to note that fundamentalist Christian beliefs were far more influential on the bastard’s motives than video games.
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+1 the Cracks.
@Michael, the ACL guy didn’t address the issue at all. Seamus’s position was that the whole thing was the ranting of a mad man – you can’t just pick one small component to push forward your own case. If you going to blame video games for this attack, you must also take issue with the stated underlying inspiration for the attack. They guy wrote a detailed 1500 page manifesto, referring repeatedly to bible passages which justify and inspired his Christian warfare. In what way was Seamus being cheap? In that he provided a full context for the video game quote? Is this cheap now.
“It’s not fair! I can’t win the argument if your going to dismiss my arguments with facts!”
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His argument wasn’t “you Christian’s are at fault,” his argument was that it was as stupid to try and blame what this man did on his Christianity as it is to blame it on the fact that he played video games, and he mentioned the fact that the manifesto has thousands of references top Christianity, compared to dozens about games.
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Yes, I understand what he said and agree with what he said. But the fine nuances of an argument are lost in morning television, and much better left to paper submissions.
Instead of doing anything that could even halfway be considered an attack, I think he should have focused his limited screen time on the (many) facts that really haven’t been finding their way to the masses.
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Given what he was there to discuss, I think the point Seamus makes remains the most logical facts to work from.
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The most annoying part of that whole piece was that the excerpts Jim used from the manifesto were used completely out of context. Also what Seamus said was entirely correct. The killer wrote a 112000 word document and the main headline to come out of it was 16 words about a video game not the thousands of words about how the bible and other christian scriptures influenced his actual feelings about the attack.
That’s right people, he cited MW2 as “training” and that gets the media attention but he also cites religion as “Inspiration” and no one goes anywhere near it. Then the media sides with the ACL when Jim Wallace come out and blatantly attacks “there people” (the games industry) about the fact that 16 words out of 112000 were cited as the reason behind that attack.
I don’t know whether this is just me but i seriously beeive that this has outlined a major flaw in not only australian media but also the world media. That they are willing to go after anything, no matter how outlandish the claim, just to avoid pissing off religious groups of any denomination. I am ashamed of channel 7.
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Seamus hardly got to say anything other than a brief intro whilst Jim Wallace was allowed to blather away as per usual. Way to go Sunrise, way… to… go.
Ugh, Jim actually said that Modern Warfare 2 is what caused Anders to “go over the edge” and go on his massacre.
Absolute bullshit, he’d been planning it for years based on his political and religious ideals.
I hope this whole issue gets swept under the rug again and we go back to focusing on the real issues in life, like Pastafarianism.
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Also Kotaku, stop going on Sunrise… if they don’t even want to learn how to pronounce your site name before going on air they really just prove how far the entire team has their heads up Koshies ass.
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+1 stop going on Sunrise.
They won’t give Jimmy boy airtime if they can’t find someone to legitimise his extremism.
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If you are going to go on I would insist that it is even airtime with each side is given a chance for rebuttal.
you know… an actual debate and not a Jim Wallace soapbox. -
If you don’t defend yourself they’ll use that ‘ol journalism chest nut “They declined to comment” — which makes you look like you’ve got something to hide. 😀
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Pretty poor, with only one question being asked and no follow-ups or responses given. Seems like the ACL guy got a lot more air time to bash gaming.
I think they should have let the CL guy go first. They aways seem to get the last say in this stuff.
And Sunrise SHOULD NOT have showed any game footige while eather of them where talking. It was distracting from what was beinging said. I think you should ask if you could go on again, by your self, to talk about this stuff on a regular bases. Soemone needs to start talking to the people as people.
That was not an interview, that was a dilibrit bashing from the ACL. You see it over in the US as well when they have skeptics for things, and they get the skeptic to talk, and then they just bash him verbaly in to the dirt. thats what happend here.
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not to mention they overlayed it with some eminem to make it seem like its those darned kids and there darned music.
I have a feeling that the ACL provided the ingame footage that wasn’t seamus playing
That was neither a discussion nor a debate nor was it journalism. Sunrise as a news source has about as much credibility as the Herald Sun online reader comments section. Seamus did as well as possible within the very limited framework of whatever you want to call that media mess.
Seamus did well but we all know the ACL would bring up “studies” and “experts” that “confirm” the link between violent videogames and violent behaviour. He should’ve beaten them to the punch with research and studies that say otherwise.
If violence in games is enough to push one man over the limit then I see the ACL’s point, however the fact that he denies the influence of religious fundamentalism in these attacks renders everything he says moot.
You can’t blame a single facet of the man’s identity as a sole contributor to this outcome. Every stimulus and interaction the man ever had led him to do what he did – not just gaming.
@ Jim Wallace: So, the hunting and Norway’s military conscription were less useful as ‘training’ than a game? So, as a gamer, I’m more lethal than Wallace, a trained SAS soldier? What a crock.
It’s funny how Seamus (kudos to him if I may do so) calmly pointed out all the factors and how the likes of ACL are not giving attention to the gunman’s religious belief yet when his turn came Wallace started out attacking Seamus – calling his claim a cheap shot.
It’s almost ironic and childish considering that the ACL are the ones making the first cheap shot by using the Oslo massacre as a “reason” to not go ahead with the R18+ rating.
Mr. Wallace, they have tried this before with the likes of the Columbine and high school gunman Michael Carneal. In both cases it was claimed that games were used for training and in both cases the claims were proven false. The Oslo massacre is no different.
Oh the old “No true Scotsman” argument. “He can’t be a Christian for doing this” when the only thing that you need to be to be a Christian is a belief in the Judaic god and Jesus Christ his son.
He claims you can’t judge all Christians for this, but you *can* judge all gamers for this. Yeah pull the other one, I hope your party loses more seats in the next election.
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No, you will have to get get rid of the Bible, Torah and the Koran. They are the thing that incite all this violence.
BS. The guy is nuts; probably always was!
Jim, Sir, Your a fn moron! Its just getting damn ridiculous nowadays with all this nonsense. I’m sick of all the qqing, and crying all these minority partys do nowadays, be it against gaming or otherwise. Its damn frustrating and I wish it would stop.
I won’t continue on about it, because I’m sure I’ll start to rant. But besides that, good work Seamus, I liked how you straight away jumped to the point of him being a christian fundamentalist. Its true, Jim, so it’s not a cheap attempt, you damn idiot.
I still maintain that religion kills more people per year than video games. I Don’t care what religion, it just does. I don’t see katamari causing people to go out and role up entire continents. but i do see most religions having their extremists.
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Hey, that’s not friggin’ funny. I let me cat out one morning and before I knew it, he was sucked up into a katamari ball along with my neighbours car and a highway overpass.
Granted, my cat loved it, like everyone who gets rolled up, but it was nerve wrecking for me.
Anyone got that in 1080p? I’m sure if we zoom in that f***ing paper is really his shopping list…
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I’m actually interested in what parts he didn’t highlight. It wouldn’t surprise me if those parts were the parts of the manifesto that Seamus brought up lol
One sided “reporting” at it’s best here. Seamus brought the point of the guy being a Fundamental right wing Christian Extremist to the forefront and it got brushed off and turning into how these imaginary 112 men of university and well known organizations presented “facts” that were thrown away in DECEMBER! So let’s forget about what happened LAST WEEK and focus on what happened in DECEMBER.
This is so stupid it makes my head hurt
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Next time get the ACL to talk first, that way instead of being attacked by a guy with an agenda you can just say:
“These people are attacking christian values”
“These people are responsible for the degredation of our society”
“Yes our society is degrading”
Is this what you’re saying sir? Because I know of a man in Norway who spent his life listening to and believing in those same words, before he went out and shot more than 90 children.
I apply the ‘mum’ test to shows like Sunrise. After watching this, what would my mum think? Sadly I’d have to say the ACL guy got the upper hand with this one, most likely because he spoke for 90% of the time, and used ‘research’ to prove his point. Surely the main point to raise with him would have been how many people play this game across the world without killing real people. It’s like the people who shun the entire Catholic church when a minority of priests committed heinous crimes with young boys over the past however many years. It isn’t that the whole church is to blame when a minority did this, just as it isn’t possible to blame games when one person goes nuts. Then there’s the links to violent movies or television programs, that are often worse than anything you see in games. It would have been a good time to bring up the R18 debate, as MW2 was released in Australia as a MA15+ title. It was a good attempt Seamus but I sort of lost the point of Christianity or whatever you were trying to make. By comparison the ACL guy was trying to appeal to the lowest common denomenator, and it probably won the ‘mum’ test this time. Why bother involving either or you though in such a short segment…
:: Seamus Byrne WIN ::
You were the only person during that interview to make any sort of sense. Well done.
:: Jim Wallace FAIL ::
I am still struggling to get my head around the shit that driblled from Jim’s mouth in this interview.
Cheap attempt at distraction from the real issue? These people?
I’m sorry Mr. Wallace, but you are the one who is attempting to distract from the real issue.
Nobody who believes in the fundementals of Christianity could ever do this? Clearly you’re blind to the facts in front of you, because this is EXACTLY WHAT HAS HAPPENED, you ignorant prick.
Oh, and you used the term cynical incorrectly.
:: Mainstream Media FAIL ::
Seriously, how hard is it to pronounce a three syllable word? or better yet, to ask how its pronounced?
Its KOTAKU. Not KATAKU. Say it with me:
KO-TA-KU.
Now that you have learned how to pronounce a simple word, go back to Journo school and learn to research your story.
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Unfortunately both were distracting from the real issue.
Seamus was saying that his fundamental Christianity (supposedly the same beliefs of the ACL guy- which is a cheap shot) was the cause of this atrocity, whilst the ACL guy was placing the blame on video games.Nobody suggested that maybe the guy is just a loon that needed an earlier intervention and maybe religion and gaming had little to do with his mental state.
The other thing is that Seamus never actually answered the question. All she asked was to explain whether he thought games could be harmful. I would’ve answered that they do if they are played by the very young or not given an appropriate context. Clearly the killer who stated that he used the game as training did not put the game in an appropriate context. From that point of view, yes, the games do have the potential to allow people to live out sick fantasies on the screen. That is fact.
The real issue is this mindset in the media that people are not responsible for their own actions. The blame is always on something else, religion, movies, comic books, music.
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Seamus did answer the question, he said the idea was ludicrous and that if people are going to blame games they should also look at the man’s political and religious views, which clearly influenced his actions a lot more than games ever did.
There were over two thousand references to Christianity in his manifesto, you can’t dismiss that by saying “but he said he trained on this game!”
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Seamus wasn’t saying it was his christian background that caused this. He was saying given the 1500 pages mostly filled with a high level of religious dogma justifying his attack compared to the 500 words or so about how he used the game as a training tool for tactical planning, if you are going to try and blame games for causing this, you have to take into consideration the fact that the religious references far outweighed it and so, if you are giving rational credence to the manifesto, are the more likely cause for the actions. However, it is far more likely neither of these were the true cause and that the guy was just wicky in the whacky woo
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I’m damn sick of us being shown in the media as criminals, and the stereotype that all gamers (or hardcore gamers, whatever) are all nerds cooped in their rooms with square eyes. What is this, 1994? It’s really bloody annoying.
I don’t think there is any argument that the guys fundamentalist mentality was a major component of why he committed his crime.
However, as gamers we need to understand the fact the he said that he used the Airport Scene, which many of us objected to upon release, to train and desensitize himself to the carnage that he caused.
Of course, the ACL get way off track and talk about how violent games desensitize all people, but I was sick to my stomach hearing about the Norway shootings and to hear about how the debate has been diluted to another argument about video games shifts the view from the bigger picture.
His real motivators were racism and hatred. Something that contemporary Christianity does not encourage and certainly not something that video games promote.
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I’ve played just about every violent game that has been released, a lot of them several playthroughs, and I can safely say I still abhor violence. I’m a medical student, and as such I consider life to be above all else. But these are games. They are not real, and it takes and already-disturbed mind to transfer the virtual reality into actual-reality.
I have to say, whilst I am completely on the “gaming” side here, the MW2 airport level was a massive mistake. I think the industry could benefit from the establishment of some kind of presiding body, council or board that can act influentially, without any actual mandated power, in the best interests of gaming in general. Perhaps a 10 member council, elected and voted for by all those working in the gaming industry.
I think we would all agree that the airport scene didn’t do gaming any favours, right?
Great Job Seamus,
But seriously we’re all missing the big picture here. Right before this piece was a story about a Krispy Kreme Doughnut-burger. Instead of bread it had two glazed doughnuts surrounding the meat and cheese. Sorry to go on about it but I just don’t know what to think any more.
They tackle the big issues on Sunrise.
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GOD DAMMIT
I missed the follow up for the burger.
Gonna grab one on my way to work tomorrow regardless.
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Brave man.
I’m not sure if I want to try one – for fear that that it will be so superior that it will make normal food taste like crap – or if I want to erase its existence from my memory to ensure I don’t have an early heart attack.
If we don’t hear from you, I’ll assume the worst.
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Did Wallace even mention the R18+ rating? I get that he sees Modern Warfare as excessively violent, but why does he support a system where children can easily obtain it, rather than adults only?
Having said that, those hypothetical ‘academics’ ARE pretty convincing…
I think Seamus should have argued that there is less of a link between the fact that the shooter played violent video games as the reasoning behind his actions, but rather that there a host of other factors far more reflective of his behaviour. It seemed Seamus attempted to preempt the arguement from the ACL and turn it back on them, but to an impartial observer it would appear that Wallace clearly had the stronger sounding arguement.
I’d also love to see a study finding how successful gamers would be with handling and using a real weapon, and how many have actually ever held or fired a firearm. Sitting on a couch with fast reflexes doesnt suddenly make me Jason Bourne or a member of the SAS
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I would love to see a debate batween Jim Wallace and Penn Jillette, an Actual debate not a Sunrise: give person A 1 minute, give person B 4 minutes, end. debate.
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When I loaded up the video and saw it was less than 5 mins in length my heart sank. Then most of it was just Jim Wallace ranting on. I would of cut him off to correct some of his facts.
Going down the ‘fundamental christian’ path I would of counted up the times he mentioned gamer and fundamental christian in his manifesto and have that on hand as a rebuttle.
Also anyone notice that Mel’s interviews on the issue give more time to the anti-gamer? At least the last one with Koch seemed to go back and forth between the debaters.
To be fair I think Sunrise was running a little late and to be fair unlike other reporters Mel didnt take a stance. Nonetheless we did not get to make rebuttal so it gave the dude an advantage
Desensitisation towards violence is a valid point I think, but I would lay the blame just as much on graphic horror/action movies too. However I do not for a single minute believe that these forms of entertainment are even close being a catalyst for psychopathic behavior. Would the ACL suggest that this guy would have just quietly suppressed his fundamentalist (what ever they were) beliefs had video games not existed? Also did I miss something – I’m pretty sure his manifesto said he didn’t believe in any God? Kind of hard to be a Christian if you take that off the table isn’t it?
I’m going to go home this arvo, and binge out on Mortal Kombat, Just Cause 2 and GTA, while I have “The Matrix” lobby scene on repeat on my second monitor.
Because if just one person does that, Wallace sheds a tear and cries.
Note to Jim Wallace – look to;
– Church “ripping” children from their parents last century…
– Church’s role in the “Stolen Generation”
– Church/Christian clergy abuse of children.
– Religious intolerance based conflicts in the world today as well as the past.
– The rise of fundamentalism across many religious groups including Christians.
– Catholic Church’s role in the proliferation of Aids in 3rd world countries due to stance on birth control
…Let’s compare and contrast the role of religion and it’s harmful impact on hundreds of thousands – to millions of people over the past 200 years.
Then let’s have a debate about the “real” role a single computer game has in shooting massacres.
Before games, it was Movies…”A Clockwork Orange” anybody? Before Movies it was books – censored or banned by religious bodies….
Jim your religious belief is matched only by your ignorance and narrow-mindedness.
Nice opening comments Seamus…
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Oh – and let’s have some context here.
PC Gaming and concerns over de-sensitization to violence: R18+ legislation to reduce access to minors who are most at risk.
Movies + TV: Look at the violence in TV/Movies and crazy mixed-up Western values where nudity and sex is more restricted than violent programming?
Guns-Weapons: How about restricted access to high-powered automatic weapons.
I fully expect this event to be Norway’s “Port Arthur” and for a more restrictive firearms policy and culture-change to develop there if the politicians are courageous.
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Guns already have pretty tight restrictions down here from my understanding. Due to the Port Arthur massacre.
I know they encompass a hell of alot of things that aren’t actually guns so i assume the higher end is even more regulated
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The church was the driving force behind some of the greatest atrocities ever committed: the crusades, the spanish inquisition, etc.
More people died in and as a result of the crusades than in any other conflict until the world wars (and even those I’m hesitant about excluding due to the unconfirmed death figures due to the record keeping at the time). It has resulted in the incredible hostility between two religions and their associated groups that has lasted almost a millennium.
The Spanish Inquisition utilised incredible brutality and cruelty in the name of Christianity. Torture devices that are still reviled to this day were used to extract confessions of heresy from thousands of innocent civilians.
This is just two of the more significant instances where such acts have been committed by the church. There are many others, as WPDownUnder has mentioned, and that’s not even mentioning the times where religion has been used as an excuse to justify such acts by members of the church’s faith.
Compared to this, the tiny number of acts supposedly gaming-related (according to a peer-rejected paper that has received countless criticisms for the methodology used, as compared to countless studies undertaken and either proving to be inconclusive or proving the opposite of Andersen’s paper) pale in comparison.
Yet you don’t see us getting up in arms every time someone goes off the deep end with a religious inspiration, do you? I think it took Seamus a lot of courage to bring that point to light and ask Jim to consider it before he made the inevitable gaming accusations the ACL is renown for. Too bad Jim brushed it aside, knowing full well he could not answer it
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InquisitionS (plural) The Spanish one is the most famous, but it wasn’t the only one.
And I didn’t really seem to catch what Jimbo was saying all i heard was “herp-a-derp” RESEARCH “herp-a-derp”
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Another example of why I can’t stomach to watch Sunrise anymore.. They’re the Australian version of Fox News.
It’s sad really. I used to like Kochie, now he just sells himself to the highest bidder and covers it as “news”.
Violent video games don’t get me riled up.
Jim Wallace does.
I think that twat needs an R18 sticker slapped across his mouth before someone else snaps.
Man, this guy played video games and killed people…
Man this guy is Christian and killed people…
I see the correlation…
Man he used the internet… and then killed people… wait I use the internet…
aaarrrrhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hang on… sorry, he had a BIG FUCK OFF GUN that killed people, that I would probably never be able to operate…
Great to see channel 7 keeping up their standards of top quality media presentations. Good try by Seamus but it looked like their mind was already made up prior to the interview on who they wanted to portray as the good guys. Channel 7 distort every news report and try and instil fear and confusion into your mind so you will go back to them time and time again.
I think more interviews on ABC and other networks are the way to go. Not that you can really deny channel 7 if they hit you up for an interview.
Gee… who would have thought that it would be the same old song and dance about how video games turn people into psychopaths…
Did Charles Manson play video games? Ed Gein? How about David Berkowitz?
Can’t we just call a spade a spade and declare that people do f*cked up things because they are dangerous and mentally unstable? I don’t think we can forever continue to blame aspects of society for everything…
That ACL guy was painful to watch, he reminded me of the kind of dolt that put all the wrongs in the world (during the late 50s to the early 70s) at the doorstep of Rock music and the devil.
On the debate itself;
While Seamus did go on the offensive, it was the only option as there wasn’t really a debate. Each person just having one segment each doesn’t solve anything or enlighten anyone. Designed in such a way that whoever Sunrise wants to have the last word, has it. Seamus I thought you did a bang-up job and probably brought to light a part of this Oslo-nutbag’s manifesto that would be glossed over/covered up by a majority of media. Especially media here, which is so intertwined with staunch Christian opinions and personalities, of those who own and run many of the networks and publications of Australia.
Seamus, good on you man, you brought up valid points. I was hoping to hear more from you, however as Charlie Brooker has taught us the news programs are more interested in “word on the street” opinions than actual debate. Let’s hope in the future a cross-media platform can be found that can actually say the word Kotaku, and is willing to enter a proper discussion on the topic of video games.
ACL Jimbo had no real arguments, he quoted the few vague words on MW2, as if they were gospel (hah!), while downplaying what Seamus quoted, which actually forms the core of the manifesto. Jimbo just a tip here: denying a reference from a document and then using the exact same document FOR reference is a huge academic fail.
Jimbo references studies on video games done by “academics”, but fails to use any actual names, specific studies or organisations that did these studies. Probably meaning that any study he is referring to is biased. As there is no wholly agreed, conclusive proof that video games cause desensitization to violence MORE so than any other form of entertainment that involves simulated violence or real competition/glorified conflict.
It seems his aim was to waggle paper menacingly and look concerned, most likely hoping to get the support of all the terrified mothers and other folk who don’t know any better. Playing on the fears of people who are feeling scared or fragile due to what happened in Norway. Very poor form, scare mongering is the weakest form of argument ACL, but it seems to be the only ones you use, besides misinformation.
Go away Jimbo and take the ACL with you.
By the way – Channel 7 sunrise has a complaints website..
Feel free to inundate them with responses.
I Just want to quote one of the messages on the Sunrise Soapbox.
Robert Sorbello
Come on people, lets get this settled…. We have been trying to ban violent games for nearly twenty years now. I know this because it was a very hot topic when i was growing up. The truth is Australia DOES NOT suffer from mass murders, massacres or extreme terrorism as much as bigger countries.
Ummm. . . was there any call to ban overly violent video games back in 1991?
Also for some reason despite allowing you to post comments about 500 characters long, the actual page only allows you to read 250 characters, leading to most people’s comments being cut off. . . gg Sunrise/Yahoo
It seems futile approaching this sort of interview as if it were a discussion.
I couldn’t actually listen to what was said, but the airtime given speaks volumes.
“As usual we’ve assembled a panel of knowledgable experts who can speak at length on the subject. And as usual we’ll be filtering out ther contributions to squeeze in all the nutbags.”
This is why the ACL needs to be taken out of the mainstream eye. They don’t represent all Christians. I’m sure a ton of Christians across Australia and the world have played the Airport scene in MW2, are they now going to A) Bomb a build and B) go on a massacre? The odds say no, or a better way to look at it. Modern Warfare 2 = Killing simulator, yeah because MW2 teaches people how to deal with recoil, reloading, taking the safety off, full auto firing and shooting stance. Well done ACL on distracting the media from the larger picture. Good work to Seamus for his well balanced and fair point of view.
I almost want all videogames taken away just so we can see what they blame when the next psycho goes on a killing spree.
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They’d just fall back on old scapegoats that were around before videogames became popular, heavy metal music and horror films in particular.
I don’t think it really matters who the boogeyman is to the ACL, as long as there is a boogeyman to justify their existence.
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Yeah they blamed Child’s Play 3 and other horror movies after Port Author because Bryant had a large collection of horror movies.
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I’m sorry. We’re going to have to pre-emptively export you to a country with a death penalty.
Crap… I’ll see you there soon.
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Im sorry, but this is just beyond stupidity, i’m going to try and contain myself here… but christ, its just horrible that they’re trying to make this link. The guy behind the Norway massacre was crazy, what ever happened to CRAZY!
Its just nuts, I’ve played MW2, and just like the vast majority of millions that HAVE as well, we do not exhibit any form of violence due to playing it… its entertainment (shocking at times), just like any movie (which can also too, be shocking).
Its almost as if mainstream media is working against the right thing at the moment.
can’t wait for the next 30 years, when all the old codgers die off and don’t have a voice any more because they are so deluded and scared by this “technology”
Then finally, maybe, gamers will be treated with respect, instead of some shitty scapegoat for everyone to blame their problems on.
“These people” What the fuck is this shit?
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yup in 20 years when the old people who grew up to be politicians and therefore never had fun will still be espousing the evils of everything.
Virtual reality is sending people insane
Mark, might be worth linking to this? http://www.abc.net.au/technology/articles/2011/07/25/3277688.htm – pretty detailed breakdown of what gaming points are in his manifesto. 2 or 3 MW2 references in a 1500 page manifesto doesn’t really sound like it’s game inspired :\
Sunrise appears to be slowly deleting some of the comments responding to how they treated the so called “debate”.
Keep posting people how their segment was more biased than fair and how violent video games are not the main cause.
“Every Christian in the world knows that nobody who believes in the fundamentals of christianity could possibly do this”
Now Ignoring the fact that Christianity spent centuries performing such attacks all throughout the crusades.
Every gamer in the world knows the difference between reality and the virtual world.
It’s those with an unstable mind that can take up things like christianity, islam and even gaming and bastardise it into something to rationalise their action’s
Also the fact that he was in the military so already had all the training he needed not come into it at all
I left a comment on the Sunrise website after I saw it but they cut you off well before the chacter limit
Jason Oliver
08:27am
Tuesday 26th July 2011
Modern Warfare 2 is one of the biggest selling games of all time, according to its publisher over 25 million people had played the game as of March 2010. By Jim Wallace’s bizarre reasoning that 25 million mass murderers walking around – give me a break! There will always be people who are…
And then it cuts off – that actually makes me angrier than the show itself – what is the point of having your say if you get cut off mid sentence???
I can’t help it but to quote what the gunman said. Perhaps people are letting it fall on deaf ears. I know that Jim Wallace is in denial over the facts, or just naive and ignorant. Perhaps all of the above.
“He did not plead guilty, saying it was necessary to save Norway and Western Europe from a “Muslim takeover” – News.com.au
Anti religion much.
I said my piece in a COMPLAINT email to Sunrise… that was the most pointless reason to wake up early this morning…
Seamus did a bang up job, it’s obvious he knew where the argument was going, and through the way he spoke and what he said he merely showcased that A) It’s easier to blame Christians if we are going to look at what Brevik has said, B) This would be stupid because Christians don’t deserve that any more than any normal ‘gamer’ would and he was also polite in referring to Mr Wallace.
I say Kudos! 🙂
Maybe we should start and Australian Gamers Lobby and try to outlaw Cristianity based on the actions of the Oslo madman.
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Normally I’d agree with that, but I say ban all religions… They’re a cause for all the horror.
But adding fuel to the defence of games. Do we all have to remember about the Holocaust. Was that not at all cause by some religious beliefs too? Antisemetism? The Holocaust was caused by Christian fundamentalism.
“Gee, games must be to blame.”
If you believe that, you’re an idiot.-
also, people claim Hitler was an Athiest. This is not true at all. Anyone that reads Mein Kampf will see he continually quotes that he is doing “Gods Work” or carrying out “Gods Will”…
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No, he was, at the very least he was agnostic. The slightest amount of research into Nazi ideology and Hitler’s political goals shows that after the war was over he wished to entirely dismantle Christianity.
Also “Gods Will” ect. Is political buzz talk, it sound allot better than, “what i want to do”
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Video games are blamed yet very little is made of the fact that he came from a broken home. From his manifesto:
In his writing Breivik blames his father for their estrangement after he was caught spraying graffiti on walls in his early teens.
He writes: “I have not spoken to my father since he isolated himself when I was 15 he was not very happy about my graffiti phase from 13 to 16. I tried contacting him five years ago but he said he was not mentally prepared for a reunion.”
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Not that I’m saying everyone whose parents have split up would do it but it shows that there was a lot of contributing factors to this guy turning into a complete nutjob and he was clearly affected in some way by his dad leaving him based on his manifesto
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Geez reading that its a wonder the anti-graffiti mob have been so quiet this week, there’s a perfect rallying point for them!
I’d like someone to rebut that christian fundamentalism was to direct cause for the crusades, they didn’t turn out very well and a lot more people died there than have at the hands of “gaming extremists”.
On another note, has Jim Wallace ever fired a gun? I’m sure if he had he would have to admit that playing any kind of FPS does not prepare you for firing a real gun accurately or with any kind of consistency. So if people are using games as “training” they will be the most inept mass murderers I can imagine.
i didnt realise that the guy used noobtubes, RPGs, Claymores and Tactical knives in this attack.
Not really surprised – the media has the same goal as politicians: to keep the debate going for as long as possible, so they have stuff to report (only politicians do it to avoid doing possibly annoying a small percentage of their electorate). This is why they always give the minority the soapbox and never give time for rebuttal – the minority can say whatever the hell they like, and the debacle continues.
On Wallace’s claim on the fundamentalist Christians – yes, let’s conveniently forget about those unfortunate three hundred years from the 11th-13th centuries.
“There was no greater evil than that evil which men do in the name of God”
– Blaise Pascal
Wallace really handed it to him. The boy just spoke and spoke and spoke.
classic that you went after his religion ahahaha.
BTW kotaku. Get your 120 experts asap lads I guarantee there would be 120 experts who read this blog who can assist you with the numbers you need to refute that garbologist and xenophobic hate monger that is the ACL
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After watching that interview again more intently… I think Seamus had the upper hand by far to be honest.
Listening back to what he said, it was truly well said without it being attacking at all. It merely drew the parallels of how gamers/ people could make the assertions about his Christian beliefs, but that too would be unfair and simply unhelpful to either end.
He chose his words carefully knowing full well that Wallace would bring an attacking argument, and saying things like, “these people” makes him look uneducated and in a position to view himself as superior. Most people don’t like that sort of speaking from experience. “These people” never goes down well….
I couldn’t even bring myself to shoot the civilians in that MW2 airport level. I guess the game failed to convert me into a murderer. (or perhaps those inclined to commit murder will do so regardless of the media they consume)
Seamus was great. Seriously mate, well done. It doesn’t even matter that Wallace got more air time, he got pwned lol.
I love that Wallace dismissed Seamus’ very good argument as a “cheap distraction” and then used a cheap distraction of his own. Once again he comes across looking pathetic.
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only to us. to those that have limited knowledge of either the manifesto oslo or gaming in general Jim comes out the victor
Jim Wallace is a jackass seriously, just let him live in his own little world of morality while the rest of the world move on.
What really irks me about this interview is that Wallace conveiniently (read: intentionally) ignores two facts:
1 – The killer used religion as a justification to murder 93 people. I dont see Wallace saying religion should be banned.
2- The killer is obviously insane. The world would be better off if shitty media outlets like sunrise educated people to recognise & understand mental illness rather than trying to scare people.
Also, I’m really interested to know how many members the ACL represents. Why the hell does this bullshit orginisation get as much exposure as it does when it does not represent a meaningful number of people.
GAH!
Oh dear. Kotaku fail. Don’t go on Sunrise and stoop to the ACL’s level and IF you go on try to speak for more than 10 seconds. You just got pwned by the ACL.
That wasn’t even a discussion, lazy agenda driven news item strikes again. I’d already started avoiding Sunrise for its inanity, this just reinforces that fact.
Sent to Sunrise (not really expecting a response or action):
I wanted to voice my disappointment at the piece broadcast this morning about violent games with Jim Wallace and Seamus Byrne.
At first I was disappointed that we seemed to be the only country looking at games as causal factor for the actions in Oslo, but then if I look at the related links in your own article, I see “Norway mourns victims of anti-Islam crusader – Yahoo!7”.
This sadly, makes it appear that your own station doesn’t really believe the stance you helped portray, but that perhaps rather taking the stance sounded good for ratings.
During the killers 1500 page manifesto, he makes reference to himself as being akin to the Knights Templar (Christian order of knights from around the 12th to 14th Century), he makes reference to Modern Warfare 10 times throughout, and mentions Christianity 2247 times.
In other countries, it is the conservative Christian groups who are on the back foot, trying to defend the actions of a Christian extremist.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/25/oslo-killings-conservative-reaction_n_909222.html
How can you have allowed a Christian conservative to appear on your show, rebut Seamus claiming that Seamus had made baseless claims, then go on to make a number of baseless claims for which no response or justification was required, for the ACL to try to turn this tragedy around to suit their own political agenda.
To now take a quote from your twitter, which was basically a quote from Jim Wallace “If the [violent scenes] are enough to be part of pushing one deranged person over the edge, then we shd take account of it”, I can only respond that if this is true, that, if we should take action over 1 person snapping out of the millions who have read/watched/played the same material, then we should also take action on the bible. Over the centuries countless wars and atrocities have been performed in the name of the bible.
This is of course ridiculous (logical, but ridiculous), and if presented to the ACL they would try to spin this in some way, and eventually those who can look at this logically would have to give up. Not because the conservative groups are right, but because they have blind faith. They feel no need to budge on their position, or provide evidence (actual evidence, not holding up some pieces of paper on tv and saying you have 112 professionals opinion. Heck, I’m a professional, and my opinion isn’t any more valid then anyone elses, and doesn’t bear worth on it’s own being held up as evidence).
To take another Jim Wallace Quote “Every Christian in the world knows that nobody who believes in the fundamentals of Christianity could possibly do this”. I’m not sure this requires a response, but I’m sure we’re all aware that Christian’s have been killing in the name of the Bible for centuries. Here’s a link to an article with specific terrorist acts where the perpetrators claimed Christian motivations. -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism
Your presentation fuels the ACL’s agenda, while flying in the face of logic, and from looking at the soapbox opinions of the piece, flies in the face of popular opinion, the comments of which appear to be being deleted if they refer to the poor presentation of the piece.
Disappointing.
Results as expected, but props for having the balls to go public Seamus. Off to make a “I’m a those people – RUN” shirt..
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Good link to Huffpost (I was wondering if I was the only person in OZ who read Huffpost).
I whole heartedly agree to what you wrote. While I am not familiar enough with Australian Law vs US Law, The US just ruled games protected under the 1st Amendment as free speech. To all the fundamentalist whom ask “who will save the children”, more less the Supreme Court in so many words said that is for the parents to do.
Basically free speech does not extend to those under 18 directly, but through that child’s parents. Which I completely agree with, and let parents purchase or not purchase violent games for their own children at their own peril. However in saying that, the numbers just do not lie, but prove what we have been saying all along. With the millions of copies of violent games out there, for wallace’s claims to be actually justifiable, there should be much much more violence like Oslo which there is not.
Kudos on your email to them, and kudos to Kotaku for there work in this as well.
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Is Seamus using Wxp still? 😛
Its a shame this has started to come up just as we were making such progress on the R18 review 🙁
Lets hope this does not delay it… After all MW2 did only have an M15 rating 😛
Wallace is being really disingenuous with a grab-bag of 112 experts that prove his point.
All the meta-analyses I’ve seen (looking at every study on something, not just the ones you want to choose) show that there’s no causal link between games and aggression, and a weak or nonexistent link between games and actual violent crime.
It’s frustrating that the media can focus on a few words in his manifesto and ignore the rest.
Wallace said that no true Christian would sanction violence to advance their cause. Fine, we’ll just ignore eight Crusades and an Inquisition. But more to the point, people who play video games aren’t violent maniacs and aren’t likely to be turned into them by what they do.
Watched the segment this morning in disgust, felt so angry about the way it was handled, I also sent Sunrise a little email…
“I’ve been playing video games since a very young age, and had some thoughts about your article this morning. If the 25 Million people who purchased a copy of Modern Warfare 2 had gone out and murdered 93 people, it would result 2,325,000,000 casualties, clearly video games are not to be blamed. It is a weak argument that has been recycled more times that ever imaginable.”
I’d like to say I was outraged by the bias presentation of an argument, and the ineptitudes of the host, but that would imply I consider the host a journalist, which is not the case.
They put any idiot in front of a camera and we make the assumption they have both a brain and common sense – yet another clear assertion this morning that we are dealing with empty shells that just regurgitate the information they’re fed.
Props to Seamus for both a clear and concise argument, and for the restrain not to burst out laughing at the babblings of a man who obviously lacks any real compassion, trying to use a tragedy to further his own goals.
At least you know you have a brigand of supporters here on Kotaku!
For lack of a better word ‘videogames’ are used by first world militry training orgainisations across the planet. These are correctly called ‘simulators’. So I am guessing that the ACL would also like the ADF to remove all ‘tech based training simulations’?
Totally stupid argument. I bet that crazy murderer missed killing some people because of lag too.
A very strong argument you made, Seamus. You’ve done me proud today.
However when I watched this in the morning, I really hated how Sunrise gave Wallace more time to talk about a very weak argument and claiming how games detract us from the “bigger issue”. Sunrise didn’t even give Seamus time to rebut Wallace’s PATHETIC argument. To end this segment of the show, they continue to talk about an irrelevant burger with two Krispy Kreme donuts?
UTTER IGNORANCE OF THE MEDIA!
It’s not just today’s “debate” that makes me want to rage in fury. It’s EVERY SINGLE THING about the media. They display “bad: and “good” news in such a short time frame that the viewers don’t have enough time to register what is actually true or false. Now Sunrise has made the extremist ACL seem like the “Good Guys”, though we informative gamers know very well that the ACL know VERY LITTLE TO NONE about games in general.
Media…realise that the thing you call “news” is absolute trash.
“No-body who believes in fundamentals of Christianity would ever do this.”
Because Christians killing followers of Islam has never happened before. Crusades much?
I’m disgusted but not surprised by the segment. Every time a show like Sunrise decides to run something like this it turns out cringe worthy.
Realistically speaking, Jim Wallace is a an extremist Christian who will use any excuse to shove his religion down people’s throats. The real issue here is that pseudo high & mighty clowns like him think they’re above the population and have a god given right to ban anything contrary to the religion.
Jim, those studies you’ve read conclude a correlative link to video games and real world violence, not causative. Since you clearly don’t understand the crucial difference between the two terms, I’ll elaborate: causative would mean real world violence is caused as a direct result of playing violent video games. Correlative could imply anything from video games being a catalyst, to violent people being attracted to violent games….So, to proclaim that violent games are at fault is laughable – nut cases will be nut cases regardless.
seamus, do yourself a favour and just don’t appear on sunrise anymore, it’s pretty clear they only have you there to ‘represent’ us and not actually listen to your logical arguments. most of the world’s media are owned by right wing christians so they don’t want to hear anyone trying to blame them for the world’s problems. if anything, stick to ABC interviews, at least they are not as bias.
Every one knows that when you buy a god damn video game that thats what it is nothing to do with this is to do with video games if some fu**ed in the head criminal wants to shoot up some place well so be it but i find it hard how people say he got his training off of MW2 his training !? what the Fu** i mean come on you cant train in a video game if you get shot in the head in real life do you get a quote pop up and then respawn no you dont its a god dam video game for Fu** sake its not real!!!
Hey guys, over here on page 4.
Letting Jim go first is pointless. Let me show you why.
Seamus goes first.
Jim goes second.
“That’s all we have time for”
but then
Jim goes first.
Seamus goes second.
Jim interrupts.
“That’s all we have time for”
This would happen, because Jim is as rude as he is blind.
I don’t know if my comment posted or not, but what Wallace said sounded a bit like what Breivik would say. These people are destroying our country. These people are destroying our society. These people are trying to undermine christian values. Actually what Wallace said on Anzac day sounds exactly like what Breivik has written, only Breivik wasn’t a homophobe.
id love to go up against jim wallace or any ACL spokesman because id have a great advantage over them because i was a victim of a nutter going on a rampage they wouldnt beable to use their sympathy card or think of the childrend card which would completely kill their agrument. You cant have someone saying ban X when a Victim tells them no.
I’m christian, and i play mw2, i think the ACL is just trying to find any ol’ excuse to get rid of violent games, it has no impact on my faith and i don’t feel the urge to go out and kill people irl. You’d think they’d know the difference between a mentally sane person being wrongly influenced by a game (if they have mental issues anyway im sure he would’ve been eventually influenced by something else, heck just turn on the news and there’s always violence, same for movies etc..) and normal sane people who can decide stuff for themselves.
Whoever runs their Facebook page doesn’t like fair discussion. Two comments made on the relevant news post, neither vitriolic nor angry, yet both deleted and myself restricted.
Since their webpage does not have an appropriate forum for discussion, where can you dispute the ACL?
Brendan O’Connor isn’t corrupted by these ACL idiots and the uninformed media. We’ll still get an R18+ rating.
when was the last time you went to a games store and thought “yea ill get that game itll help me be a better Killer” infact when has anyone purchased a game with the intention of using it for anything other than what it was made for PLAYING A GAME which we do for ENTERTAINMENT not so we can be better killers.
Poor seamus didnt even get a proper look in. No rubutal. And once again, media makes an outlandish claim, and a religous group agrees.
Listening to this bloke dribble crap makes me want to shoot someone a lot more than playing call of duty.
A large proportion of the Australian popular media has abandoned the concept of responsible journalism because it is more profitable to focus on tabloid style sensationalism, giving air time to rabid fanatics like the ACL results in higher ratings than presenting a reasoned and researched piece.
The viewing public are far more interested in seeing emotional conflict than reasoned discussion, I suggest that we should refrain from contributing to the conflict.
Obviously any reasonable person will be able to look at the hate filled rambling of this terrorist and come to the conclusion that games had nothing to do with his beliefs or actions.
You cannot convince an extremist to change there views with reason, force or persistence. These extremists, both Jim Wallace and the Terrorist in Norway, are unable to make the mental leap required to see a situation from any other persons point of view.
A reasonable person would not seek political gain from mindless violence. Batshit crazy extremists, on the other hand, appear to have no problem with it. Jim Wallace should be ashamed of himself.
For f**ks sakes, all the ACL does is slam video games. They do nothing to make a better living for people just hinder them by banning games. Which is far from being the next Messiah or Jesus they so want to be.
Again I am going to say, how many of the people who died played these games as well? I’m betting more then half. They didn’t drop their controller and go on a rampage.
Their only real flimsy evidence is that aggressive people are attracted to violent games which can make them angrier, but they have enough marbles to not go around killing innocent people.
This man was a nutcase, there is nothing to blame but his mental state.
Also, his hobby was HUNTING! Friggin’ HUNTING! Why is this never mentioned in this pointless debate?!
Wow this made me angry.. just wow. For someone to be that wrong and still stand up for it.. wow.
What’s the source of the ‘evidence’ he claimed to have?
I just read the bible as a training manuel to learn how to crucify someone. I really think we need to ban the bible and protect children from such a violent fictional story.
Just going from the quote they use from the guy that ‘he saw MW2 as part of his training regime’, if he’s using it to train, doesn’t that mean he’s set out to train for something, not that it has made him want to do it. Even the statement they use to link him with games doesn’t even work for their point.
Seamus’ argument was very accurate, and the ACL rep clearly misunderstood what he said, mainly because he didn’t listen clearly to Seamus. The argument over this issue within the manifesto is basic logic: there are more references to the bible than there are to videogames, therefore what special allowance does the bible have over videogames in being exempt from criticism? That is, if we are criticising any of the outside influences Breivik had in the first place.
On a side note, it’s a bit rich that someone can denounce video games as a violent influence on people when representing a religion…
It would appear that Religion was the reason Anders went over the edge.
Better ban all religious books, classes and buildings so nothing like that happens here
tl;dr
ACL are idiots who should ave a gag order issued for defamation of the video game industry.
That was a thoughtful and well presented argument by Seamus. However, he was against a *politician*, a master of spin. I could not get past the condescending smile at the Wallace started with. That is *no coincidence* it’s a technique to assume a superiority position. I did not need to hear the following arguments, nothing but empty spin.
Just remember folks, for all his spin and smugness, Wallace knows we’re winning, he also knows it was bound to happen sooner rather than later.
Let him play his political games, we will be playing ours and they will be R18+
The brutal reality is that religion has and still does kill more people than video games.
Religion turns some people into crazed maniacs. Maybe thats an issues that needs to be looked at?
I have played ALOT of games over the past say 20 years. The peak of my gaming induced rage was when I through my SNES control and it broke.
Gaming makes me swear too.
This is complete and utter CRAP. Sorry but if violent video games should be banned due to MAYBE being linked to something this attrocious, does that mean religion should be outlawed? I’m pretty sure theres been multiple wars and more blood shead “The Lords Name”, anyway. They cant control video games so they want to outlaw them until everything is their own way. No offence to christians but KEEP YOUR FAITH TO YOURSELF!!!
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