Off Topic: Game Of Thrones Part 2 [Spoilers]

[Spoiler warning] This is the second week in a row we've made Game of Thrones the focus of Off Topic, but yeah... yesterday's episode was a humdinger, so I reckon we should have a little space to talk about that. Off topic is as good a place as any.

As always: a few rules. Please don't break them.

1. No book spoilers.

Actually that's the only rule.

And speaking of book spoilers, one night before we went to sleep my wife was reading Game of Thrones. She got all excited and was screaming 'LET ME TELL YOU WHAT HAPPENED!' in a fit of glee.

I was like... fine just tell me. What she told me back then, almost 18 months ago, was the story of what happened during the Red Wedding, and what happened to Joffrey last night. So basically she spoiled all the best twists of two full seasons of television. It's my own fault, I shouldn't have agreed to it!

But the crazy thing is this: I don't think it's dulled my enjoyment of this show.

I'm a big fan. I tend to be hyper critical of shows — had major issues with Breaking Bad, couldn't even get through one single episode of House of Cards — but I love Game of Thrones, despite some of its flaws.

Yesterday was a great example: great performances all round, great pay off for an arc that had been building ever since the moment Tyrion Lannister slapped Joffrey in the face back in, what was it... episode one of season one?

And that's another thing: the TV show just does such an incredible job of adapting the show. Top notch stuff. Love it.


Comments

    I don't know if this is really a spoiler, more just a differential from the book, and I don't know how to insert spoiler tags, but interesting they had Bronn teaching Jamie how to fight left handed instead of the tongue-less Ser Ilyn Payne.

      Possibly because the actor Wilko Johnson has been diagnosed with terminal cancer.

        Poor guy. He was always a badass: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NS5bxk89gQg (Yes, that really is the same Wilko!)

      That isn't the only thing I think they have changed from the books. Does make it interesting actually.

        They have changed heaps, most of it is subtle stuff though, merging 3 characters events into 1 etc.

          I didn't mean that as a criticism actually. I like what they have done.

            Yea same here, the books got a bit confusing with so many characters everywhere, and it makes nice suprise when watching.

          I am judging the quality of this show on how well they condense the books into a TV series and so far they are doing a spectacular job. I am really impressed with how they've adapted everything.

    I loved the episode, the only issue I had with it is they could've shown a bit more restraint with making Joffrey a monster. Everyone knows he's a monster but they had like a non-stop stream of 'this is why you should hate the guy' moments over the course of the episode. Felt a little heavy handed. Almost became a caricature of himself.
     
    I freakin' love this show, though. So good.
     
    As for the end? I enjoy the rare time we get a happy ending in Game of Thrones. XD (Does that make me a monster. I might've smiled. Is that bad?)
     
    Glad I didn't get spoiled. Was spoiled for the Red Wedding too.

    Last edited 15/04/14 11:21 am

      I liked the way that you could see it was going to happen. Everybody was being humiliated. The music and the facial expressions all were building to something... but you didn't know what. Was somebody going to snap and stab him? Smash him over the head with a chalice? Or poison him somehow?

      And in the end, even though you could see it coming, every single person watching would have just said "YES!".

      I think the point is that he had no redeeming features and no-one on his side- it's a broader point about the wielding of power in feudal societies- even the King needs to play the game. If they don't they get Richard the Seconded or Magna Carta'd.

        Yeah I think they needed to hammer in how much worse he is getting and would become.

          It's not just that he's a horrible human being- he's a horrible human being who won't play the game, not even a little.

          SPOILER AND THE PRETTY OBVIOUS THEORY

          Hell, if Joffrey had shown signs of listening to Margaery- if Oleanna Tyrell thought he could be reasoned with- the Tyrells wouldn't have put him down

            I might be wrong but i dont think it was the Tyrells, I can't remember if the books actually point the finger as to who exactly it was

              They imply really 3 people on the conspiracy: Littlefinger, Ser Dontos, and Oleanna. Dontos gives Sansa the hairnet (necklace in the show) which has gemstones on it- actually crystallised poison. Oleanna comes and talks to Sansa, and straightens the harinet, palming a gem or two (she fiddles with the necklace on the show). Oleanna then puts the poison in the cup.

              It's all implied, but they have the clearest chain of events

                I might be wrong but when Oleanna is talking to Sansa, i think I noticed a missing gem on Sansa's necklace. And later, Joffrey takes a big sip before cutting the pie, but when he goes for another drink he takes a different cup.

                And you can see Oleanna smiling...

                I'm still intrigued about that half a second shot of the pie...

                  That second shot of the pie was just the dead dove that he caused with his sword.

                Yeah I always thought it was Olenna, but I gathered there's a secret conspiracy going on, how far have you got in the books because I want to say something without spoiling the whole lot

                  There's a book spoiler rule for a reason. Hiding it in a spoiler tag is useless because people will be clicking these thinking it relates to the show.

                  @redartifice this is for you. Won't let me reply to your comment..

                  The more I think of it, the more I'm convinced Olenna is behind it. I'm trying to find a link in my memory between the Tyrells and Aegon. I know there is a link (i'm pretty sure it was mentioned somewhere or was it through littlefinger?) I just can't remember it. I kinda want to take this discussion offline because I don't want to spoil it for people who ignore spoiler tags

                  @shads use rot13: http://rot13.com/

                  V'z cerggl qnza pbaivaprq Byrnaan vf gur phycevg sbe Wbsserl, ohg vg'f va pbapreg jvgu Yvggyrsvatre. Ubj zhpu bs vg vf sbe gur Gleryy'f orarsvg naq ubj zhpu vf sbe Yvggyrsvatre'f orarsvg? Jr fgvyy unira'g frra uvf znwbe cynl, juvpu nf sne nf V thrff jvyy vaibyir Fnafn va n ovt jnl.

                  Gur bgure ovt jvyqpneqf ner jungrire Inelf vf hc gb, naq jungrire Qbena Znegryy (jub'f orra onpxvat Qnranelf va n ovt jnl) qbrf arkg.

                  @redartifice

                  lbhe pbzzrag nobhg Yvggyrsvatre naq Fnafn znxrf zr jbaqre jurer lbh ner hcgb va gur obbxf. Orpnhfr va zl erpbyyrpgvba vg unf orra pbirerq. Jryy gur ernfbavat oruvaq vg nyy unfa'g ohg jung ur cynaf jvgu Fnafn unf orra pbirerq.

                  bu naq V pna'g jnvg sbe gung jubyr Qbeavfu fgbelyvar gb or fubja. fnqyl v srne vg jbhyq or arkg frnfba...

                  @shads V'ir svavfurq Qnapr jvgu Qentbaf. Vg'f zber gung jr xabj Yvggyrsvatre vf znxvat n cynl, ohg gur rknpg jnl vg'yy cynl bhg jr qba'g xabj.

      I kinda like this point of him being a caricature of himself. Jack Gleeson was basically Adam Westing Joffrey for the majority of this episode.

      Bittersweet though. Everyone's celebration is undermining who got fingered for the deed...

        Yeah, very true. Got to take the small victories though!

    There's a decent joke going around the interwebs about how nice it was to see even Joffrey getting choked up at his own wedding!

    I had a similar thing happen a few months ago one of my friends blurted out that the cause of Joffrey's death was poisoning. At least I didn't really know when or who would do it.

      I did actually spoil it for myself about 10 minutes before it happened. I was looking up the name of his sword because I didn't hear it correctly. I looked up "Joffrey's sword" and one of the google previews said "After Joffrey's death, his sword Widow's Wail...". I got my answer, but fuck!!!

      Still, it was still a surprise at least because I expected it to happen somewhere down the line, not the same episode.

        Haha I did the exact same thing, was just looking on FB and saw Game of Throne Memes and first one was Joffreys dead poisoned face as it screened in the US earlier, I have read the books but still.

      I had someone a maybe last year be like, 'we all know Joffrey's going to die.'

      I was like, 'I hadn't really thought about it.' Of course then from it being said, I knew it'd be fact and so anticipated it and that was really annoying.

      GOT is a show where unlike say LOST you can't speculate at all as the answers are all known. So I like to watch and enjoy and kind of privately wonder where it's going but not really discuss it.

      So knowing a character was going to die, and not when or how was a real bummer.

      HOWEVER, this same person a few months ago then said, 'he's poisoned at the wedding and Tyrion is blamed.' They also said who did it.

      So then you don't know, but once the trailers for the show come out you can see, 'oh so yeah that's what happened.

      So this episode when it got to the cup bearer I knew exactly what was going to happen and it really did take away the enjoyment and suspense. That was a moment of enjoyment, shock and surprise which was for ever robbed from me.

      As for who poisoned, part of me doesn't know whether to trust who I was told, but whether it ends up being true or not, that has been ruined as I'll always think it was that character until it's revealed.

        You can certainly speculate, it's just unless you're current on the books you can only speculate in a closed environment

    no matter what ended up happening to him, it was never gonna be unpleasant enough.
    poison was too humane.

      In the books he scratched up his neck trying to open an airway. I was a little disappointed when that didn't happen.

        I agree, I always got the feeling from the book that when it happened, it wasn't know if it was poison or if he just choked to death on the pie.

          i thought for a second he was choking on a feather from the birds he chopped.

        Much like how in the books the dragons were seen to be suckling from Danerys's nipples

    I will say the end kind of reminded me of Who Shot Mr. Burns? Cuts to all the different tables of people frowning, one-by-one. The suspects! XD

      Interestingly, if you look close enough in the episode and you know what you're looking for, they showed who did it.

        yeah i found it great following how it all actually happened, because in the book you don't find out until later. So it was great seeing it all unfold

    I'm a little upset he died. He was someone that I loved to loathe (more than any other character i can think of)...

    "In some places, the rape and murder of children is considered distasteful. What a fortunate thing for you, former Queen Regent, that your daughter Myrcella has been sent to live in the latter sort of place."

    BOOOOOOM SHOTS FIRED BY THE RED VIPER

    The death at the start of the episode is the most I have ever been disturbed with a tv show. It was little rough. I hate that guy more than I ever hated Joffrey

      The entire Greyjoy torture scenes made me very uncomfortable and disturbed... they presented those scenes just a little bit too well :P
      Ramsay Snow, and indeed the entire Bolton Family is freaking insane :P
      I haven't read the books, so much knowledge is limited, but daaaamn

        Trust me, they are allot worse in the books, Ramsay is by far more evil than Joffrey imo.

          Oh god, that scares me :P... Every time he is on screen, the smirk he gives creeps me the hell out :P

          smarter. meaner. darker. the boltons are by far the scariest dudes in the book, until possibly euron, imo, could match them just for pure evil

            I never really found him to be evil, just refreshed my memory on some of Ramsay and old Reeks antics in the book, truely sick c*nts.

          @Black Dahlia NZ Book spoiler? I didn't think Theon got his junk cut off in the book? (thats the ultimate torture to me)

            Yea I think you are right, and the way he appeared was also completely different, twas Ramsays idea to burn the farmer kids etc.

    I spoiled the end of season 4 by reading the blurb on the back of 'a dance with dragons' although I didn't expect it when the event finally took place (in the books as obviously season 4 has only started). I've now read all the books and can happily say the show still brings some amazement and surprise for me.
    tywin does not shit gold!

    Last edited 15/04/14 11:53 am

      I did the same thing but only read the first part (the spoiler you mentioned) then stopped so I didn't spoil more. I told my sister later that I'd accidently spoiled something from the books and she said "oh did you read that Joffrey dies?" - Well no I didn't but thanks for another spoiler :P

        I did exactly the same thing, although my sister hadn't read the books and just laughed at me.

      Why were you looking at the back of Dragons? Current progress on TV series leaves things mid Book 3 in the timeline. Surely reading the back of Crows (Book 4) would have been at about the start of Season 5?

        They've merged and moved things around from mid-season two onwards. For example, anything with Dany after freeing those slaves is from book five, as she doesn't even appear in book four. They'll have to do the same eventually with the other two major characters who weren't in book four. Hopefully the writers won't have to do much padding (ie "Where are my dragons?!?!") to keep characters in while the meat of the story continues. That said, reading the blurb was still a bit silly.

        Last edited 16/04/14 10:41 pm

    Feels like they are really moving through a lot of stuff each episode, which is good. Some of the other seasons it felt like episode after episode was just filler, checking in with each character just to see where they were and that's about it.

    My girlfriend and I were speculating that they were building up to the wedding and it would be the big climax that typically happens in the second to last episode, so we were surprised to see it come up so quickly.

      I was actually hoping they wouldn't do that because knowing what this wedding leads too excites me a bit.

      Also i think i have picked what will be in the standard episode 9 cliff hanger. oh I can't wait.

    Here is a link showing some things at the wedding most of us might have missed.

    http://screenrant.com/game-of-thrones-season-4-purple-wedding-spoilers-oleanna/

    Last edited 15/04/14 12:10 pm

    I really like the way Sophie Turner played Sansa in this episode. So much silent pain throughout.

      Yeah, loved the scene where she helped Tyrion with the goblet too. The most intimidate moment they've shared to date.

      I'm really hoping they actually let her do something at some point.

    I'm surprised there is not more of a 'Who did it' feel to this comment section, although it seems a lot of you have read the books. I have not so I can only speculate but if I had to put my dollars on it, I'd guess old Olenna is behind it. It looks like she grabs a gem off Sansa's necklace when she’s playing with her hair, I noticed it missing in 1 of the shots and re-wound to see when it came off. I reckon she gave the necklace to the disgraced knight who was responsible for giving it to Sansa and also for getting her out of there once it all went down..

    Also I think we're missing something here - how utterly brilliant Mad Men's return was. *So* brilliant. Remembered why I love this show quick smart.

      Yeah, man. Posted about it on TAY this morning. Thought it was amazing.

        I know right! I was swooning over it like crazy last night, kept declaring how great it was. I'd honestly forgotten how great this show is until I saw that. What solid way to enter into a final season! Resting on zero laurels, love it.

          One of those rare shows that reinvents itself. Every season has it's own point of difference that feels necessary contrasting where we were before. Still surprising every time, though.

          Enjoying the Los Angeles storylines too, but I had to cringe at Pete. Haha! I loved seeing Joan come into her element though and the effect stress is having on Ken. That scene at the end with his messed up depth perception made me laugh.

            Poor old Joan though. Her 'element' is still quite the struggle. Every character who appeared had a worthwhile presence, was super great.

              Seems Roger has found himself a new lifestyle, too. Haha! Yeah, appreciated they didn't feel the need to include a Betty sub plot just for the sake of having one yet. A nicely balanced ensemble. :D And Freddy's pitch at the start? Should've known that was pure Don.

              Last edited 15/04/14 1:06 pm

                Haha I randomly clicked on these while scrolling up and wondered who these weird GoT characters were...

    Lots of people are saying his death wasn't cruel enough. I thought it was the cruelest death in the series so far. Couldn't take my eyes of his purple face.

    Last edited 15/04/14 12:49 pm

      I'd disagree and say seeing your pregnant wife stabbed in the belly stabbing while your loyal men and comrades are having their throats slit and being shot by arrows before being held by the man you thought was loyal to your cause stabs you right in the heart while saying the name of your enemies was pretty cruel

    I noticed that the first (only) two people to rush to Joffrey were his biological parents: Cersei and Jaime - goddamn incestuous couple. I'm starting to quite like Jaime though, admittedly.

      I don't know the books but I too am keen to see where Jaime's story goes. Ever since last season he's begun growing on me.

      Last edited 15/04/14 1:32 pm

        Same. Since that spa scene with Brienne where he reveals the origin of his kingslayer name.

          Probably where every book reader also fell in love with Jaime.

        Jaime/Brienne's story has been shifted around a fair bit from the books. In the books they weren't at King's Landing in time for the wedding so Jaime never saw it happen. Also Loras is one of the Kingsguard (after the battle of Blackwater Bay) so there's a lot more/different interaction between him and Jaime.

        Even as someone who's read the books I'm really interested to see where their story is going because it's so different already (and the acting is great).

    Great episode, but the death was tame compared to what I would have expected. Same goes for the torture... I know it sounds morbid, but when will someone get the balls to make Alexandre Aja style aggression on TV.

    One of the things they changed in the movie was Vargo Hoat been sent to the wall to seek for the Stark boys...

      Has anyone else noticed how the show randomly changed Vargo Hoat's name to "Locke"? What's that about?

    Ohhhh I loved it!! Especially because GRRM actually wrote this episode.. So much awesome subtext (both in a visual sense and through the wordplay) I need to watch it again to pick it all up. Cersei's realisation that she was no longer the Queen Regent was played out so well by Lena Headey.. Brilliant episode!
    Wait for the aftermath people :)

    BTW, I can't stand House of Cards either, but the original BBC series of House of Cards is frigging excellent.

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