Talk Amongst Yourselves

Welcome to Talk Amongst Yourselves, AKA 'TAY'. Organise meet-ups, talk about games, talk about anything you want! Consider this the unofficial Kotaku Australia forum. Become a TAYbie today and join the best and friendliest community on the internet!


Comments

    New TAY saying 8:45AM, suspicion-detector is going off the charts :P
    Hope everyone had a good christmas!

      I forgot to do it at 8am. Busted! ;)

        Haha all good! Afterall, you're only human :)

          He tried his best techie, no need to insult the poor man

          Last edited 29/12/14 10:46 am

            Hey hey hey, I held back okay? It's not like I called him a meatbag or something :P

    This is the dangers of holidays, I completely forgot it's Monday today. Fortunately I'm working tomorrowand not today :-D

    Just had an odd conversation with my 5yo son about Castrati. All he did was giggle at the word "scrotum", though. :P

    Help! I can't stop playing The Witcher 2!

    Also, my secret SanTAY gift arrived! (It actually got here before Christmas but the post office was closed until today...)

    They got me some wooden puzzle thingos. The first of which fell apart as I pulled it out of the box so I had to try and put it back together immediately... They must plan that to happen.

    Even though I have no idea who you are, thanks buddy! They signed their name in moon language. The best I could decipher using Google Translate was:

    Your pal,
    Door surgery handsome calendar month

    Thanks, @doorsurgeryhandsomecalendarmonth.

      Door surgery in action: http://imgur.com/gallery/tDLuMUu

    Morning all, How was everyones Christmas?

      Was good. I had 3 lots of christmas lunch/dinner so food overload which is always good in my books.
      Gift wise nothing much, we mostly buy for the kids these days, although I did end up with a few village cinema vouchers things so might have to go see a couple of things soon. Best of all both lots of vouchers came with the offer of babysitting so we can actually use them.

      The other really cool gift I got which is only kinda for me was a print by childrens book author Freya Blackwood (Hi @freya). It was the mockup for the mural she did for the Orange childrens hospital. We are waiting for it to be framed but basically this is the print

      Stayed Sat night at the in-laws and darling daughter didn't sleep great so she is a bit cranky. But most of christmas day was spent cleaning and trying to make space to move her into the 2nd bedroom.

      Not terrible. Visited with my mother's side of the family Christmas day, went to my wife's aunt's place Christmas night. Got a nice bottle of scotch from my mother though that was technically a late birthday present.

      Pretty average really. No dramas. For which I am relieved. A few more years and I might believe our family is nearly normal instead of the dysfunctional mess it was a few years ago.

      Kind of boring, actually. I was mostly sitting around waiting to go home.

    I'm on skeleton crew this week which reminds me of the game where you create a fake album cover where you generate it by:

    1) going to wikipedia and hitting "random"; use the article name as the band
    2) going to http://www.quotationspage.com/random.php3 and taking the last quote on the page; use last 3-5 words as the title (whichever makes more grammatical sense)
    3) go to http://www.flickr.com/explore/interesting/7days and use the 3rd image as your cover art

    Now mock up that album cover!

    http://imgur.com/soFDvKV

    P.S.: The reason "skeleton" reminds me of this game is because one time my band was "2005 German Skeleton Championships".

    P.P.S.: you might have to click the button to get new quotes, I tested it and it seems that the default "random" quotes are always the same, at least on my work PC

      Most boring album ever. Although if you don't have a Christmas gift for grandma have I got a deal for you
      https://imgflip.com/i/fsfpj

        Nice. I believe Deborah Ball (or D-Ball as she's known on the streets) is reponsible for the summer hip-hop hit "C*ntry Lyfe"

      http://imgur.com/rvfiUgr

      Well that turned out pretty well.

        Also I just realised I meant to chop out the "like" from that quote bit. Erase it in your mind, I already closed the thingos :P

      I remember doing this game years ago. Found one of my old ones, according to the timestamp it's from 2007 (!). Don't think I'll ever top it.

      http://i.imgur.com/pUU1DS3.jpg

    Hey Persona Q players, did you choose 4 or 3 as your starters?

      4.
      I do love 3, but 4's cast of characters were better developed. I thought it'd make for more entertaining team dialogue.

      But then I forgot how annoying Teddie was.
      I should have gone with 3.

        If teddie wasn't annoying you wouldn't get everyone treating him like dirt though.
        A necessary evil

      4. I haven't played 3. My knowledge of it comes from occasional looks at the wiki, and the first of the movies.

      Totally agree with Bish that Teddie's annoyingness is amped up to 11.

        You should check out 3. The PSP version is playable on Vita ( what region are you because dunno how that lame Aussie store is)

        Also, I played like $5 for P3Fes on US PSN.

    Ah, the post Xmas droop...
    What are we all looking forward to in 2015, gaming or otherwise?

      Dunno man! I never know what's going to be around the corner :D

      Gaming wise there's Bloodborne, MH4U, MGSV, Xenoblade X, Final Fantasy, Zelda, Grim Fandango, Resident Evil, Witcher 3, Batman, Yakuza and a bunch of other things! Life wise - this job is awesome and I could end up interstate and what happens with my intercompany rotations could affect errythin' ;o

      ...and of course seeing TAY peeps at PAX! (board games all day erry day)

      Resident Evil Revelations 2
      Final Fantasy Type 0
      Duke Nukem 3D Megaton Edition for Vita
      Resident Evil Remake Remaster
      Devil Survivor 2 Break Record
      Yakuza 5

      Maybe Bravely Second & FF XV if they come.

      Star Wars VII
      Jurassic World

      I honestly have no real idea what's coming up that I'm looking forward to. I'm sure there's stuff coming out I want but I just have no idea. I'm sticking to my "don't buy it until you have time to play it" principles and part of that is that I don't really check out upcoming/new release games anymore unless I have a gap in my schedule.

      Star Wars Battlefront.

      DICE better not stuff this up.

      Last edited 29/12/14 1:38 pm

      Uh, The Mandate, maybe? I want that Frogatto platformer game I greenlit to come out already. I have no interest in the actual game, but the level editor looks so awesome.

      Woah, through some random searching whilst trying to think of games, I found out Bleed 2 is in development. YES! YES!
      Woot, I'm freaking pumped for that game! Woooooh! Yeah!
      I should stop typing out my exclamations of joy. Hoorah! Yipee! HYYYYYYYYPE!

    3 days left!

    @beardymcmuttonchops @beeawwb @cufcfan616 @dc @dkzeitgeist @freezespreston @gutsoup @jimu @lambomann007 @popdart5 @sernobulus @strange @sughly @transientmind @welbot @virus__

    Had a hectic Xmas? Wish you could just relax and unwind? Come to Freeze's Quiet Night Inn for New Years Eve and sit back and relax with some games. Have a quiet talk with some friends over a drink. Tuck into a complimentary meal. Free lodging. Free limo* service from train station. Book now to avoid additional disappointment.

    *not a limo

      NOU..!

      I mean, err, I said yes to this didn't I..? I can't remember /o\

      Can't make it, sorry :)

      I'll go! (Unless no one else goes, then I'd just feel like I was in the way. :P)

      Last edited 29/12/14 11:47 am

      I will be there. I will probably get in around 8pm...ish. Depends when I finish work.

      I know I've said this in last weeks post, but for the sake of consistency, I'll post again. I wont be able to make it sorry. I wont get home from work til like 5 or after, and then I have to work again the day after new year, and given how ill I've been feeling, I think I'll need the day off to recoup a little. Wish I could, but better to be safe than sorry!

      Kids haven't been well behaved enough to warrant a trip down for a good time. :( Thanks for the offer though. :)

      Looks like I'm going to be with family, now. (I had a suspicion this might be a request after we met properly for xmas day/boxing day). But this is a most excellent idea. I am very into the down-tempo vibe.

    Christmas was excellent, ate too much and never want to eat again (lies).

    Mum is sick of Skyrim (after 180 hours I'm not surprised) so she wants something like that to play. She's already played Oblivion, so I suggested Dragon Age 2 because it's fairly basic, but we had a small ("small") argument because she was having difficulty in the tutorial stage getting used to the fact that the mouse doesn't control the camera like in Skyrim. She seemed to pull her patience together like she was keen to give it a go later after I left, but who knows if she will.

    Anyone got any suggestions for good Skyrim-like games with easy controls?

    If I could get her onto a console this would make life a billion times easier.

      Would she like Fallout 3 or New Vegas?

        Sorry, I forgot to mention that she doesn't like shooting games. She'd prefer to hit things with swords.

          Hmm, that does kind of limit options especially if difficulty is a concern. I hit a wall early in DA:O that's prevented me from enjoying the franchise.

          Maybe an entirely different kind of game is warranted? What does she like most about Skyrim? The setting (sword/sorcery medievalesque fantasy), the gameplay (whacking shit with swords) or generally just an engaging story regardless of gameplay/setting? Are there other games she's liked that might give us some more insight?

            As far as I know, she's played/finished Skyrim, Oblivion, and Overlord 1 & 2. She also plays some puzzle games, but gets frustrated at those.

          Diablo 3? I don't have any problem with those controls (I'm terrible at shooting games)

            That one might be worth a go, thanks.

            ...No, I'm not also getting suggestions for games for me to play not at all!

            I've been working on a Diablo III shirt all day, played it for a few hours last night, and still didn't think to suggest it. *facepalm*

          Bit late to the party, but I would note that melee builds in Fallout 3/New Vegas are pretty damn viable, and V.A.T.S. makes it a cinch. All planning, no fuss on the execution.

      Oooooh, CAT!!! :D

      There aren't actually many games like Skyrim, that I can recall.
      You could try downloading some mods for her though maybe?
      Some of them offer heaps of content.

      Other than that, the only games I can think of (that are First Person) would be the Fallout series, and maybe even the Far Cry series.

        Yeah, I was going to get the DLC for her, but I think she's just sick of the game in general at the moment. When she wants to get back into it I'll get her the DLC and some mods to give her new content.

        Unfortunately she doesn't like shooting games, which really cuts down on the games I could suggest for her.

          I love hitting things with swords and axes, but hate shooting games. The Fallout games don't at all feel like shooters to me. I love them. Plus, she could go all crowbar on her enemies and pretend it was a sword.... :D

            That's true! I will broach that idea with her...

          Also...did you try Dark Souls?

            It's my Mum, I would never do that to her!

              I love Dark Souls, and I'm someone's Mum.... :P

                You're not my Mum though, and I know what would make her throw the computer out of the window ;)

          Hmm, the only other games I can think of aren't first person though.
          There's Dragons Dogma and Kingdoms of Amalur, maybe?
          Or Dark Souls! :D
          (don't get her Dark Souls :P)

            Thanks for stealing my also also ALSO suggestions, Lion!:P

            (@renne - definitely try Kingdoms of Amalur and/or Dragons' Dogma)

            Those are good suggestions, thanks!

            Amalur is a really good suggestion. Which reminds me, I must install and play that from PSN.

          Also also...what about Morrowind?

            Haha I'd completely forgotten about Morrowind.

              There's that total conversion mod for Skyrim that turns it into Morrowind coming out at some point. Or lots of mods for Morrowind making it look and play much less dated.

                Thanks, I think I remember the Morrowind mod being mentioned. I'll keep an eye out for it when it's done, she might be ready to go back to Skyrim by that point anyway.

          Mount & Blade: Warband?
          Controls can be a bit tricky to get a hang of and visuals are a bit dated. But tis a big open world medieval hack n slash and can be played first person if you want.
          (Tho scale the difficulty right down as "Normal" is utterly brutal.)

            Yeah, I usually put her on the easiest difficulty anyway, because she likes to game but she would rather plough through a story than be frustrated by having to do battles over and over. If the controls are tricky, I might have a bash at it first myself, because the way she lost her temper over the DA2 ones...

      Dishonored
      Shadows of Modor
      If you are considering dark souls maybe try lords of the fallen
      The witcher series

      And on a different note and slightly different style what about things like Jedi academy or force unleashed?

        That's an excellent range of games, clearly I wasn't thinking hard enough (too much christmas ham probably).

          There is no such thing as too much Christmas ham

          Oh and for the next 12 hrs kingdoms of Amalamadingdong is on sale for $5
          And Mount and blade is $4

          Last edited 29/12/14 4:57 pm

            I sent her the steam link for Kingdoms of Amalur so she's currently downloading that one.

      I actually recommend Dragon Age Origins or Dragon Age Inquisition... I cannot remember how the camera controls work in Origins but in Inquisition you can use the mouse to control them.

      I also hate shooting games but loved (LOVED) mass effect...

        I think Inquisition would be great, but it's still a bit too expensive right now for her. I've definitely got it on the list for her to try later down the track once she's got through a few of the suggestions and it'll have dropped a little in price.

    Is it just me, or is twitter down?
    *cries*
    What am I supposed to do with my day now?! D':

    Also, starting today, I have the house to myself for 3 weeks! :D
    I suspect the lack of human interaction and the confined solitude will make me crazy...

      It's down on some phone apps, but the browser version is working.

        *shakes DC vigorously*
        BUT WHY WON'T IT WORK ON MY PHONE!?!?!?
        *continues to shake DC vigorously*
        WHY?!?!?!

      Down for me too on my phone. Now how will I see how many people favourite my hilarious tweets!?

        I stopped favouriting your tweets because I thought it'd be annoying for you if I favourited all your tweets...
        *coughs*
        I favourite them in my heart...
        *coughs*

          Favourites are my life.

            If this were a tweet, I would favourite it, in my heart.
            For now I'll just upvote it...
            In my heart.

        The #IfYouAreTheOne crowd love'm!

          I measure a successful #ifyouaretheone night on the amount of favourites I get.

          ...last night was a failure :P

            I liked you're out-of-context slightly racist tweet.
            "Mr. White", HA!

              It was in context if you were watching the show! He turned up in an entirely white outfit (shoes and all) and wore full white in all of his videos :P

      Twitter was out on my phone most of the day, but ok on my laptop

    Question, I'm trying to figure out how much money a new tv would cost in terms of electricity. I know our current one says 120 watts on the back. I have no idea how much it uses a year which makes it hard to compare to the new tvs, as they have the star ratings. They usually tell you the amount of electricity they use per year as well. Does anyone know how they work this shit out?

      Those stickers on them with their energy rating is based on (I think) 10 hours of use per day. Mine (a 40" Sony Bravia) apparently only uses 110kw a year based on 10 hours of use per day. Our currently price per kilowatt of energy here in NSW is somewhere around the 32 cent mark. So it would cost me something like $350 a year to run my TV for 10 hours a day every day.

      Are you talking about adding another TV on top of your usual power load? Because unless it's going to be in use 24/7 the cost should be pretty negligible. The real power hogs in the house are the things that are always running like the fridge, air con, etc. Probably consoles running in stand-by as well.

      An extra TV running a couple of hours a day probably comes out at a few bucks at most.

        I am looking at replacing the one we have for one that is more energy efficient.

    Worst three days of my life with PSN down. I even had to talk to family and wasted my only two days off on the weekend.

    I looked at that statement after writing it and it seems very first-world problem-esque. But in all seriousness, it was tough this Festivus. I was excited about finally upgrading my Titan helmet and stressed about missing Xur (who I found out via constantly watching the Twitter PSN feed is Agente De Los Nueve in Spanish). Damn you Bungie for making me feel this way! *shakes fist at nothing in particular*.

    Bungie Maths time: VOG runs 11 + Crota runs 3 = 2 bits of armour. Why is this so? *shakes fist with disgruntled look*

    And still I play. Is Bungie/Activision part of FIFA or something?????????

      My cousin's boyfriend bought a new Xbox One and brought it over to my aunt's place for updates and to download his gamertag, savegames etc as they don't have internet at their place at the moment. He actually had an Xbone before when he worked at EB but they made him either pay for it or give it back for bullshit reasons when he left (he could afford to keep the PS4 or Xbone and he chose the PS4).

      That afternoon I turned on my Xbone to kill time before my wife picked me up after visiting her family - thought I'd play some Volgarr while watching videos on my PC but I couldn't sign in at all, so I thought: man, lucky it wasn't down earlier in the day or he would have been screwed! Then it occurred to me: I thought you could still play offline now since people got shitty about the always-online stuff, but apparently not, so I guess he's screwed til he gets internet at his new place anyway. :/

        Can't edit posts at work: I should clarify this is Christmas Day I was referring to.

        Was he a manager at EB? Because all managers were given Xbones & PS4's last year at release it was really silly..

        That's so shit you can't play anything without being online with the Xbone :/

          Yeah, I think he was a store manager at a crappy store and they kept him going by promising him a better store, but kept giving these new awesome stores to newly promoted managers. He's taken an assistant manager role at a Bose store and is much happier earning more with less responsibility.

          He was told that the consoles were his to keep no strings attached, but when he quit they 180'd and told him he had to return them (or pay for them). He could only afford one on such short notice and had more time invested in the PS4, so he let the Xbone go.

            Yeah EB managers & ASM's are worked to the bone, which is entirely unfair. Good to hear he found a better job somewhere else.

            That's just so wrong.

        Yeah I feel sorry for everyone that turned on their brand new XBone or PS4 with excitement in their eyes Xmas Day.

        Would have been devastating. Dad getting angry, everyone combing through the instruction manual, resetting their modems, smashing Google. A terrible day for some.

      Oooh, a Destiny player!
      We should be friends, friend! :D

      PSN = liondrive, if you want :)

        Done. Invite sent. bigharro99 on PSN, Always happy to have more friends for raids!

    I watched The Interview last night, it wasn't that bad. It was even funny at times as well.. It had way more plot to it than I thought it would as well. I'd give it a solid 6/10.

      I'm hearing mixed things about this movie.
      I think it was @jimu who said it was hilarious (nay be mistaken).
      I thought it looked kind of, "meh", but might check it out at some stage.

        I was really worried because I like those guys but am not so keen on the anti N Korean 'humour' that the US is so keen on atm.

        I thought it was handled even better than Team America, which I love.America is portrayed every bit as stupid as Korea & it's set up early on to make you realise what you're in for, the tone is set expertly early on.

        It's full of hilarious jokes & top notch acting. They only play the same idiot characters they always play, but they do it well.

        I was laughing a lot, which as a comedy meets the goal, but there's also a strong message about the power of the media, the government & all the bullshit in between.

        10/10 silly American comedy

        Last edited 29/12/14 2:02 pm

        It's a good movie. It's no greatest movie of 2014, but I actually found it funny, I don't find a lot of stuff funny for some reason, but I did here for some reason. I watched it out of pure curiosity, I don't think i've ever seen a Seth Rogen or James Franco movie before, but thought it was good.

      I quite enjoyed it, laughed out loud way more than I should have. 8/10 for me.

    Started watching Star Wars Rebels the other day, since I'd run out of Gravity Falls, and it's a pretty cool guy. Feels like it owes a bit to Firefly or Farscape or one of those other "small crew" sci-fi shows (Which I guess a lot of the original trilogy is anyway [just chilling on the Falcon], but it feels different, ya know?).

    Super predictable, and while I don't mind its art style, some of its character animations are a bit rubbish. But, I'll probably keep watching it, because it has the "bwaaarrrmmm" and the "pew pew" and all that jazz.

    Tried playing more Lords of the Fallen, but I restarted it, got absolutely smashed by the boss at the end of the tutorial, which was kind of odd since I'd breezed past him the first time, beat the second boss, and seem to have hit a wall of unfair bullshit, so it's back in the pile (for now).

    And Valkyria Chronicles is a pretty cool guy, still. Actually laughed out loud when I got the requisite fan-service beach scene. And it's interesting. Half the levels I seem to breeze through, getting an A or B rank without really trying super hard. Other ones I don't think I could complete without a guide.

    And now I'm sitting here, talking about crap that hopefully nobody cares about (for your own sanity), and considering buying This War of Mine, because I definitely haven't bought enough games on Steam this sale.

      Where you stuck at in LotF?
      I've also put that back on the pile, despite being probably near the end, largely due to bugs.

        Just after beating The Commander (who, by the way, is an utter wanker. Oh, he only has two attacks that leave him vulnerable enough for a hit, hey, let's make it so that he never uses one of them, and so that the other one just drops bombs from the sky wherever it wants, and can juggle someone between them with nothing they can do as they lose 70% of their health. That sounds like fun!).

        Had a choice between going backwards, and being murdered by some poisonous creature that had a habit of comboing me down from 80% health with an attack that went through a metre of wall. Going forwards and to the left, where I was murdered by an enemy who kept their shield up all the time, and only dropped it to kill me in one hit, or to wander aimlessly where I found a big dude with a scythe who wasn't so bad except for how he did... something? And I just sort of died. Again.

          Oh yeah, if the dude on the left is who I think it is (big guy, sword/shield) I found him impossible to beat at that point in the game. The only way to beat those guys that I have found is:
          Later on when you find the smith, put a Luck? rune in your explosive gantlet to make it cause a distraction like the Alluring Skulls in Dark souls. Then hit em in the back till they snap out of it, run like hell and repeat. Cheap as shit but the only way to kill them I found.
          The Worshiper boss with the Scythe:
          When he gets down on one knee and starts casting blue clouds all over the place, run into one of the white glowing shrines, it will protect you when he explodes everything.
          Also, in general I found speed is king in this game. Enemy attacks are too fast for slow weapons or fat-rolling. Even using a shield does not help half the time as they smash through your stamina too quick.
          Also a bug when fighting the next boss, the Infiltrator: the magic fount in the middle will drain your magic if you go near it. And after you kill the boss, your magic will never regen past the amount you had when you killed him. So make sure you stick to the edges and have full mana when you win.

            That's a pretty damn bad bug.

            Apparently if you do the shield charge you've got a decent chance of breaking the big dudes' guard, but I haven't tested that.

              Hey at least it doesn't put you in an infinite spawn/death loop and completely break your game like a couple of other bugs I've heard of...
              Not the most well made game around that's for sure.

      Where are you watching Rebels? I want to start watching it, but iTunes seems to be releasing episodes painfully slowly (last episode released was no. 6 on 10 November). I'm considering ust waitinguntil the DVD comes out with everything on it...

      Last edited 29/12/14 2:06 pm

        Yarrrr, I've been sailing the seven seas.

        The seven seas of rye, that is. *High fives self, drinks into an alcoholic stupor*

        Edit: Oh, and iTunes isn't that far behind, I assume by no. 6 you're including "Spark of Rebellion" as an episode, so they had 6 out on the day it aired. Since then, only 2 episodes aired (gotta take a Christmas break), though they're a two-parter.

        Last edited 29/12/14 2:20 pm

          OK, thanks. I think I'll buy Spark of Rebllion and see if I like it.

          Otherwise I'll just find the clone wars DVD collection somewhere.

        It's only up to ep 8 and then it took like a 4-5 week break for some reason, won't be back until next week.

    I made another album cover because I'm bored. I mean, I have work to do, but I've been really productive today and I felt Limbless Skink had a pretty successful debut.

    http://imgur.com/Sbtma1U

    Twitter is still down, so I'll have to tweet here instead:

    Contemplating shaving my belly hair into ab lines.

      I'd tweet here but I'm saving my A-material for real twitter.

      > implying I have A-material

      Twitter works via compooter but not fone :-(

    Seems like 343i really can't help themselves turning Halo into CoD. Has anybody else seen the redesign for the Rocket Launcher in Halo 5?

      I saw some video clips from the Halo 5 beta and I've decided I have no interest whatsoever. If I wanted to play future CoD I would have bought Advanced Warfare or gone back to Titanfall.

      It looks the same?

        Haha! No.
        http://i.imgur.com/5DkrhzE.png

          Wait, what? That looks totally different from the one I saw. It must have been a Halo 4 one with a misleading label. That new one looks pretty stupid.

    Just tried to use my credit card & it claims I have not enabled it for online shopping, never mind all that stuff I've been buying.

      I freaked out when I got a paypal login rejection stating my account has been permabanned. Then I realised that I was trying to login with the wrong email address. Now I'm bothered because the hotmail account I've had for about 15 years, that no one else had before me, is "banned" from paypal?! I don't plan to use it, but... banned?!

      Maybe it just auto-rejects hotmail accounts or something?

        Seems ozgameshop has extra security & asks your bank for permission.
        because I didn't bother setting up internet banking, it couldn't ask.

        Fairly painless process to get them to set it up & it was immeadiate, which is nice.

        Also, ozgameshop just charged me $2 for shipping!
        When did that start?

          Middle of the year I think, suddnely shipping is no longer free, prices aren't as good... adding in the wait time and it's suddenly a lot less competitive compared to just taking advantage of JB's low launch prices and sales. :/

            Yeah, I used to go there for everything but now, not so much.

            It just so happened they did have the cheapest price this time, shipping included.

            What a sad turn of events :-(

    Claimant's correspondence states he is "weak at the knees" due to an incident involving our insured's "loose manhole".

    I definitely kept a straight face while composing my response.

    So I ordered Hyperdimension Neptunia ReBirth, here's hoping I don't hate it.

Join the discussion!