Talk Amongst Yourselves

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    I'm a Systems Architect with a solid work history and list of achievements, but little to no qualifications, and trying to break into management.

    It's driving me crazy as I'm not getting interviews, almost certainly because I don't have a degree. I could go get a degree, but thats a good few years, and 50k down the drain for a piece of paper that says I can do a job I already can do, and have the history to prove it.


      Sadly the tech industry is one of those places where the piece of paper holds weight.

      An option would be to see, assuming you are currently employed, whether your employer would be willing to support some sort of study through work situation where you can qualify through your exploits at work. I'm not sure of the specifics but it might be something to look into. It would also save you the money as your business could probably subsidise tuition.

      Its not just the tech industry, its an issue in plenty of other areas as well. My career stalled at a similar level for similar reasons, with ~23 year olds with a piece of paper getting advanced ahead of decades of experience. We ended up with an entire generation of workers stuck at their grade, with no chance of promotion. I got just beyond that point, then the same practices got in the way as graduates were fast tracked.

      Like you, it started with not even getting to the interview stage, where they focussed on applicants with degrees. Meanwhile I had decades designing and building databases, handling data analysis, etc, with provable products to back my claims up. They had a piece of paper.

      I'm fortunate that I have been able to set myself up well enough for to work around it, but it'll cost me with my pension. Which isn't far away, thanks to corporate attitudes.

      I could go on for hours how the practice annoys me. All people want is a chance to compete equally. If the degree holder is the better person for the job, so be it, but when you never get a chance and have the proof to back your claims up, you know its not you but the system.

      As for getting work to pay for it, best of luck. They might, theres certainly a chance, but personally I pushed to do even basic courses to back up my abilities and got stonewalled every time. For years, to the point I stopped bothering. It beat me down to the point I no longer cared, and happily eyeing off redundancy so I can get away from it.

      On the plus side, I'll be retiring before 50...

        I have six years experience as an English as a Second Language teacher. I've taught in public schools from kindergarten to year 12. I've taught vocational classes and special education classes. I was an advisor on a state syllabus that is in use right now.

        I work in an office now because I don't want to go back to school full-time for two years to get that piece of paper.

          That's pretty much where my generation ended up. Personally, I had a decade with SQL, vba and MS Access under my belt before it became an issue.

          Just trying to get a Cert 4 to back it up turned out to be impossible. Even that would have been enough of a piece of paper. Got shafted in that role, the next role (after two awards for projects doing similar), and now a third time. None of them about my ability, just the seat I sit in.

          I'm just tired of fighting it now, so will take my mad skillz, put my feet up, and make Android games with Unity. Or play poker more, dunno yet.

      I only really needed the piece of paper to get my first job out of Uni. After that, employers didn't really care much about it (and it was too long ago to be relevant now anyway) and cared almost primarily about experience.

        You're lucky. Its a problem that's slowly built over a 20 year period here. Get to a certain grade, it no longer matters, but getting to that grade was tough. Most positions below it were saved for graduates and others with qualifications, and for a good 5 years people were filtered out of the process purely because they didn't have qualifications.

        You really needed an incredible applications just to get a foot in the door if you were working on experience alone. Its left a sub-class of employee that had little to no chance of getting ahead.

          Not sure if I missed it, what industry are you in?

            Public service

              Fair enough. I have limited experience (as IT) dealing with the public sector, but I've always gotten the impression that they run off very old playbooks in how they operate. Always seemed very rigid too, which I suppose would fit with the idea that their recruitment policy is 'have the bit of paper' and they don't budge on it.

                Long post. Sorry, its a vent I need to do somewhere, this is as good as anywhere.

                Up until the mid 80's, they had a two tier system, with clerks and clerical assistants being separate promotion processes. The clerks did the technical jobs, here that being the processing of tax returns (before self assessment), audits, etc, while the CA's did the non technical stuff. Dunno what that was, it was before my time.

                Then they combined them into one set of grades, and people were promoted on merit - best person for the job. So experience became important, qualifications secondary as they supported your ability. I joined not long after that, and got a few promotions because I was good at what I did. Things were good during the 90's.

                Then they started focusing more on their graduate program, which was basically putting grads through a few areas over a year. Had been in place for a while, but all they really got at the end was a confirmed job, nothing else. At some point they decided to guarantee them a promotion at the end of that year. That's when things started to change.

                People employed for the past decade and more suddenly had their careers put on hold as those guaranteed promotions sucked up all the opportunities. If they hadn't gotten to a high enough grade on experience, the positions they would typically fill naturally weren't appearing.

                Grads were seen as The Future. Those gifted positions morphed into pushing them into higher grades very quickly, pushing the issue into a wider range of people. That all started to be an issue in the late 90's to early 00's.

                Other changes across the years made it even harder to get a promotion, like nationwide freezes, opening PS jobs up to the public, office specialisation (sites not having a wide variety of options), and similar. Being in a regional office didn't help either as there would be 100 others vying for the same job.

                Things slowly settled down, but it was still bloody hard to get ahead for most veterans in the department. Ultimately it created a two tier system again in all but name.

                I chose to move to a regional area, and eventually stop commuting, because a) I could, and b) the savings in time and travel costs were as good as a promotion. But a decade of doing work at 2 or 3 grades above my pay were wasted.

                Today, they're moving my job interstate. I wont go with it, so am eyeing off redundancy. Not a bad thing, just a thing. I can probably stay if I want, but don't really want to tbh after how all this has played out. Yes I'm bitter.

                I've made it work for me, but I do have resentment for being held back through no fault of my own, and watched the entire office I work in suffer similarly. And people coming in, that had qualifications because it had become standard, aren't going to care.

                Today everyone coming into the public service has a piece of paper. In 1990, maybe a third did. The sad thing is, people in that group are late 40's to early 50's, so have another 10-20 years work ahead of them and little chance of advancement.

                Leave, and its near impossible to find relevant work as well. So they have little choice but to accept it, in an environment where management doesn't seem to care.

                I have no doubt that others will see how its played out differently, but that's what I've observed while here. And now they're giving me an out that lets me walk away while still living to the same standard I do now. Which aint shabby.

                  I guess I'll just repost what I posted yesterday since it's still stuck in moderation:

                  Ouch. Yeah that's not a nice experience at all. It always sucks working for someone who just doesn't give a shit about you, among other things it makes it harder for you to give a shit about them or the work too.

                  Redundancy doesn't sound great personally, but if you're happy with it and it's an opportunity to get out of a bad place, then it's a win. Hope you don't have too much trouble finding new work.

                  @zombiejesus its all good. Redundancy isn't a negative in this case. It lets me access my super, with its pension being good enough for my lifestyle. So I wont NEED to find work for anything other than not being bored, or as an extra fundraiser for travel.

                  I've gone over those numbers a lot in recent times. As I said, I have made it work. I'm very good with numbers. :)

      Man, then you'll get that overpriced degree - at great personal and financial cost - and you'll need to have some other shitty "industry body accreditation" (think I.T equiv of CPA/MBA) which also costs a fortune.
      Education in Australia is a total scam.

      I do have a degree but it's totally irrelevant to my job. I also never did MSCE, CCNA or anything but worked in IT for years in in-house support and infrastructure. After a redundancy, wound up working at a vendor back in support.

      Networking the shit out of your contacts is the only way. You just won't get interviews through Seek/Linkedin job applications if your cv is getting filtered, you have to go around the wall not through it.

      Rebuild CV with achievements at the front especially if you've done any management at all. Write a custom cover letter for each and every application with three good "you're looking for X, well here's how I can do X" (every job I've got they told me after that the cover letter got me the interview...). You can reuse bits from old cover letters, you'll have a couple of pages of useful stuff that you can pick and choose from.

      If you need to cover a weakness with a bit of paper, doing a certificate in the area you need is invaluable, whether it's people or project management. But the other way is to work in smaller organisations where you can take on extra responsibilities that will shape your CV to what you need for the roles you want to work in a few years.

      Use your linkedin and make sure you've got endorsements from good people you've worked with in the relevant areas. Find and talk to people that are And then talk to specialist recruiters who'll look past the dross to see the real you.

      And good luck. Hunger Games looks like Playschool compared to the job market.

        "Find and talk to people that are..."

        ...doing the things you want to be doing, and get known. :)

    I need some suggestions, I have the day off due to a northern Tasmania public holiday (Launceston) and have little to no motivation. I've some options on the cards (listed below) but if anyone had other ideas, I'm open.

    • Go back and play that hard mode breath of the wild from the beginning. It's been a while since I've played BotW so this is a reasonable choice.
    • Play WoW
    • Buy Octopath Traveler. heard mixed reviews but as it's seemingly a mix of Bravely Default, Seiken Densetsu 3 and Final Fantasy Tactics it could be an option
    • Play more RDR2. It's not that I've lost interest in the game, but the pacing is a little too slow for me, I'm happy to jump on for about an hour and knock off a quest and maybe do some hunting for a bit, but beyond that, it doesn't hold my attention for very long.
    • Go have a beer at lunch, any other Launceston based folk are welcome :P
    • Binge watch a television series or anime (recommendations appreciated)
    • Clean the house and do domestic chores then sit in front of my computer procrastinating over what I should do next

      Go check up on the monkeys at the gardens, I love visiting them when I'm down ????

        It's wet and miserable out at the moment :'(

      Clean the house and do domestic chores then sit in front of my computer procrastinating over what I should do next

      That's my plan for today. Only, in reverse.

        next do should I what over procrastinating computer my of front in sit then chores domestic do and house the Clean?

        That sounds complicated...

      Rdr2 is really boring. I am normally anti quick travel, but the camp map doesn't cut it.

      Battle Star Galactica Is always my recommendation, favourite TV series of all time. The Expanse is catching up though that's some seriously great sci-fi

    @scree Thanks for the Seven Deadly Sins recommendation, I finished the current stuff a few days ago. You weren't kidding about Melodias being handsy, that's way over the top even compared to typical fan service. But the story is interesting, and the characters are broadly likeable, so it was a good watch. Looking forward to some kind of future next season.

      Yeah, Meliodas is the only real downside to Seven deadly sins, with the possible exception of Elizabeth. I like her, when she shows character, but it's not often. She's pretty much Ex Machina in a person.
      There is a 4 episode mini series about the 7 deadly sins that's from their past. They are also releasing a movie soonish too.
      Have you watched My Hero academia? I have forgotten if you had watched it. You may also like Radiant which has just started this season and is 5 episodes long atm.

      I'm such a weeb. >_>

        I haven't seen either of those, but My Hero has been on my list to check out for a while. I'm just wrapping up Castlevania (I know, it's not really anime) and I also really enjoyed Violet Evergarden a few months back. I'm a huge anime fan too so don't worry!

          I finished Catslevania a few days ago and really enjoyed it.
          The other thing I am also enjoying is Zombie land saga because it is so ridiculous. It's an idol genre parody

            With Rick and Morty disappearing from Netflix later this week I'll need another cartoon to replace it as the lazy and fun time filler. As I never finished Castlevania last year, that seems as good as any for now.

            Probably go back to Archer though, that never disappoints.

              Oh yeah, Archer is always good. I'm hoping for more steven universe and star vs the forces of evil

    Did anyone else catch that FFXV YouTube stream? Things sure got dark fast. Tabata resigned and they straight up cancelled Episodes Araneae, Lunafreya and Noctis. Such a weird tone to everything else they announced.

    eerrm, so BFV went live early. Wasn't expecting that.

    Is there a TAY Destiny 2 clan for PC? I was in the PS4 one for a bit, but after playing it on PC, I don't think I'll go back to console. It feels so damn good on PC.

      There was, I found it randomly in game and joined it when I was trying out D2 but it was pretty dead back then.

      Admittedly this was even before they added any chat functionality... man I really wanted to like that game.

        If you want to get back in, I'm playing a lot. The gunplay feels great and I'm generally pretty happy to do the open world run around and see if specials are going to drop.

          I was also finding it hard to keep up when I was playing since I worked FIFO and missed two thirds of events.

          That said I did enjoy the actual gameplay, if I reinstall it on a whim I’ll be sure to hit you up though.

      Yeah there is still a clan. There is normally a few people online most of the time

        How do you search clans? Or do I have to be invited?

        If so, invite pls.


          Not sure if invite only. Clan is KotakuAU [TAY] if searching

    Quiet thanks to people who have been making good use of the reporting function lately. Really helps me clean out some accounts that have no desire to play nicely with others, for lack of a better phrase pre-coffee.

      Cheers as well. I like that we have a little kotaku community here. The comments section and people in it definitely keep me coming back here throughout the day. The people reporting users and also the staff actively using that feedback help keep the trolls away.

      Is the Auto moderation system ever going to be fixed? It's annoying that your comment gets placed into auto-moderation just for fixing a spelling mistake.

      I've heard a couple of times its being looked at but its been several years without any change.

        Spam bots were taking advantage of the edit function so it had to be added, I'm afraid.

    This is for the StarCraft fans out there. After avoiding it for so many years, I gave the first game a shot.

    Besides money, etc., back in the day, I heard one had to be a micromanagement master to play this game.

    Well, after four chapters of the first campaign, it looks like that rule is only for multiplayer and the campaign is more focused on being a large tutorial and presenting the story than anything else.

    Seriously, it must be easy as I have not RTS skill at all.

    It will be interesting to see how things go and what SC2 will be like when I finally get back to it.

      I dont think i could ever attempt to play SC Multiplayer on the original or 2. Im used to the RTS style of games like AOE where you take your time to build up your base. But on SC2 even against bots i get anhiliated. Im still building up my resources and upgrades while the enemy has already sent over an army.

        Yeah, the SC campaign doesn't require as intense APM as the multiplayer does.

        Best thing you can do: play the SC1 campaign in SC2. It's called Total Recall, I think, and it lets you play through with all the modern UI additions of SC2 (multi-building select, no cap on unit groups). Absolute blast.

          Oh cool. I never knew that existed. Cheers

    If current word is to be believed, we have lost another great mind today.

    RIP, Stan Lee.

    [Lights a small candle]

      He's not dead, he's returned to Asgard. His time with us here on Earth was just a cameo to make us all smile.

      Was a sad day. It also overshadowed a death the day before that many would be a little sad about. Not a household name, Douglas Rain died at the age of 90 on Nov 11.

      Best known for voicing HAL 9000 in 2001 and related projects.

        I was just reading about Rain the other day and was surprised to see he was still kicking.

        May he also rest in peace.

    @alexwalker Seems I was right, the 1809 update for Windows 10 resumed rollout this week. It's a staggered rollout as usual, but they've also added a check that if you have software that might cause problems with the update it won't download it for you.

    As with other updates, the update tool will get you 1809 even if it's not available through Windows Update.

      Yeah, my work PC started downloading it last night. Looking forward to actually testing some ray tracing now.

        Good timing as my Strix 2080Ti just arrived today. Woot.

          Have fun with the new cards. Could you guys post some info on the performance hit with rtx?

            I don't have any games that support it yet. I do have AC Odyssey benchmarks though. 3440x1440 got for FPS +33% avg, +146% min, +23% max over the 1080Ti on ultra preset. Not a great or especially scientific test, but it was the only one I could be bothered doing before swapping the card.

            The 1809 update actually added about 5% to the average FPS, so that was a nice boon too.

              Cheers. That sounds good. I run the same res on my main screen. What's fps average? I gather it's a ultra widescreen?

                I have an ultrawide, yeah. My system has a lot of stuff running that saps game performance so the raw numbers aren't so useful, but with ultra preset at 3440x1440 I got 66fps average, which is up from 50-something with the 1080Ti.

                  Damn. I would've been hoping for more with the 2080. Especially a ti. Bottlenecking from the apps running maybe.

    Pokemon Let's go is the first major new game I've bought since Super Mario odyssey and I'm pretty excited.
    Of course, it's splatfest on Saturday so I will just have to play pokemon all day today

      It's a sacrifice you're willing to make. How was it?

        Good! I am really enjoying it. Unfortunately, I only got to play it for an hour before going to bed. D=

    Why are we getting obnoxious pop up ads now? They are really annoying on mobile. Didnt we just do a survey saying that the advertising on the site is problematic?

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