Avengers: Endgame Is Excellent

Image: Marvel Studios

Avengers: Endgame, the big send-off to the current crop of money-printers known as the Marvel Cinematic Universe, hits theatres this week. Two of Kotaku’s hero-worshippers, Joshua Rivera and Seung Park, have thoughts about this conclusion (or is it?) to the franchise. We do spoil the movie, so if you’re planning to watch it, steer clear until you do. The hardest choices require the strongest wills… or something.

Joshua Rivera: Can you believe it’s been 11 years that Marvel Studios has pulled this insane comic book nonsense off again and again? That they managed to keep us all excited for this ridiculous, three-hour ending for a 22-film story? I sure can’t. It’s amazing and absurd, and they might have pulled it off. What do you think, Seung? How long have you been along for this ride?

Seung Park: Hey Josh! Super excited to join this discussion about Fanservice: The Movie. Because, well, that’s what Endgame essentially was. Not that I’m complaining.

I’ve been waiting for more than a decade for this movie, and I didn’t believe Marvel could meet my sky-high expectations. With a few caveats, I’m so, so happy to be proven wrong. Endgame was basically everything I ever wanted in a grand, epic conclusion to the saga the studio has been building for so long. It was immensely gratifying, as a Marvel Cinematic Universe (MCU) fan, to sit there as everything played out on the screen. Every five minutes, there would be a moment or a scene where I would go, “oh wow, they brought them back!” or “hey, I remember that!”

To answer your last question, I watched the first Iron Man in theatres, and kinda forgot about the rest of them until I saw Avengers in 2012. I’ve been hooked ever since. Yourself?

Image: Marvel Studios

Josh: Oh, I’ve been on board from the very start, although my level of investment has waxed and waned over the years. A big part of my hype here comes from the fact that Endgame promises, well, an ending! I like endings! They’re important! They’re also hard to talk about without going into some details, so we’re going to get spoilery here—did the movie surprise you with how it started, and in general?

Seung: I was absolutely surprised—I did not expect Endgame to take the path it did, and that’s coming from someone who’s watched every trailer dissection video. (That’s not a brag.) When Thor chopped off Thanos’ head within the first 20 minutes of the movie, I realised that all of my theories had to be thrown out the window, because I had no idea where Endgame was taking me. And then they went into the whole time heist second act, and... * mimics brain exploding *

I do think the weakest part of Endgame is the first act, before Ant-Man shows up and after the first ignominious Thanos “battle.” Things just kind of seemed to plod and meander along for a bit, but I suppose it’s a fair trade to show the actual repercussions of a decimation event.

Josh: Yeah, the basic premise of Endgame was a complete surprise to me, and is a very neat trick that does a lot of work with a single beat. It throws out a bunch of fan theories and tries to get you to just enjoy the movie for whatever it has in store, and it sets up a movie that is way more fun than the dour ending of Infinity War would suggest. So instead of that humdrum movie the first act suggests we’re getting, we have a fun as hell time travel story, taking us back to… other Marvel movies. How cool was that?

Image: Marvel Studios

Seung: So freaking cool. The Battle of New York! The Sanctum Sanctorum (and the Ancient One!) Morag! And, uh, hm, Thor 2 is somewhere in there too, I guess. Which is actually interesting—Endgame somehow brought out a better performance from Rene Russo than The Dark World did. Plus, we get a Jane cameo, which I would’ve bet my left arm that we would never see in the MCU again.

My favourite thing to come out of that whole time travel shenanigans, though, is how we got to experience the aftermath of that seminal New York battle. Like, what did the Avengers do *after* they struck that cool pose in front of Loki? Did he ever end up getting that drink? Now we know! Speaking of Loki, that’s one plot thread that’s left hanging—he escapes with the Space Stone! You bet they’re going to bring that back somehow.

Josh: Yeah, it’s a neat way of keeping that character alive and mischievous. (And, of course, a great plug for the Disney+ Loki show.)

Seung: I think one of my favourite things about Endgame overall is just how much it seemed like an actual ending, while simultaneously (and sneakily) still setting up some future plot threads.

Josh: It’s a very comic book trick. And this movie is full of comic book tricks like that: taking something old and not terribly beloved like Thor: The Dark World and repurposing it so it becomes poignant and meaningful. Or giving us battle scenes that cash in on off-hand jokes made years ago, doing things that just freaking rock because the very basic rules of the MCU have been repeated over and over again, like setup for a punchline that you forgot was coming.

I’m talking around something extremely cool, of course, and I just want to confirm with you that it was extremely cool.

Seung: Yes, the extremely cool thing was, indeed, extremely cool. (No, we’re not going to spoil it, because some things just need to be seen to be believed.) But then, this movie is chock-full of extremely cool things: Spidey’s instant-kill mode, T’challa remembering Clint’s name, a call-back to that elevator scene from The Winter Soldier that also nods to an infamous line from the recent comics, and a bevy of other stuff that I don’t have the time to type out right now.

The most extremelyest, coolest thing, though, was how Endgame poignantly wrapped up the stories of the original six. Because, at the end of the day, this was THEIR movie.

Image: Marvel Studios

Josh: Absolutely. And I think for the most part, this movie does something that Infinity War just didn’t have time for, which is some really considered character work. Not all of it lands—the movie barely has time for any of its women outside of Nebula—but the big guns? Tony, Steve, Thor? Endgame really takes the time to remind us of what makes them tick, and why we’ll miss them. And I’m gonna miss them, if this is indeed goodbye.

Seung: Well, I kind of disagree that Infinity War didn’t have time for character work. It just spent all of it on Thanos! (And Gamora, to a lesser extent.)

As for the big three, I’ve got a feeling we’ll be seeing at least one of them again. But Endgame did a really great job of reaching back through each character’s entire history—not just the previous few movies—and building conclusions for them that really land, especially for long-invested, diehard fans who’ve stuck with the characters since day one.

Josh: Ha, you’re right about Infinity War! And there’s good reason to believe your hunch regarding the big three for sure. Because while this is definitely an ending, it’s not the ending, and while I’m not sure I’ll be on board for another 22-movie saga, Endgame takes some time to show the ways the MCU has changed over the years. It’s in a much more interesting place. I’m happy to hang out here for a bit.

Seung: I’ll be right there with you, Josh. Endgame leaves the MCU with a lot of new questions to be answered, and while some people might be feeling the burnout, not us... not us.


Comments

    Shazam was better.

      Shazam Opening weekend - $53 Million
      Endgame opening weekend - $1.2 billion

      Ooof.

      (Not saying Shazam is bad, Its a great movie that i encourage people to see.)

    Definitely not burnt out on the MCU, they're only getting bigger and better with each movie. In saying that though, I'll definitely watch Spider-Man Far From Home, but I'll kind of have to decide whether or not I want to watch any more after that, because Endgame was just a fantastic way to end the MCU.

      Unless Dr. Doom or Galactus is the next Thanos-style big villain. Then I'm back on board for another 10 / 11 years of MCU.

        Yeah phase 4 should at least bring some X-men and/or a new Fantastic Four, along with Guardians 3 (with Thor?) so I'm keen to see where they go from here.

        Also as someone who loves Ultron but wasn't a huge fan of AoU, I kinda hope they bring him back at some point and do him a bit more justice.

          now that we have decided timetavel is a thing in the MCU.. What about Kang the conquerer and the time masters? that could at least draw in the Fantastic 4 and deadpool, which could drag along the xmen given both DP movies have had jokes around no Xmen in his movies..

    I enjoyed the movie as I watched it, but it started falling apart soon after. By including time travel and teleportation mechanics along with the Infinity Gauntlet mechanics it opens up a huge amount of confusing plot conundrums.

    i.e. Can they go back and get any old MacGuffin from the past anytime they need it? Can they go and grab Black Widow from the past just like they grabbed Gamora? And so on...

    To enjoy this film, I really can't think too hard about it.

      Yep agree. It had good bits, and try not to think too much about the holes. Definitely not the best in the series (or even top 5 for me in terms of enjoyment).
      Perhaps I was just down about knowing it was all coming to an end. I’m the same with games, I hate it when they end. Just ... deflated.

      It felt like the rules they were setting for time travel would minimise the damage it could do to future films. Early on Stark establishes that you can't modify your own universe's past, so the machine was instead letting them hop into the past of a divergent reality, and then return. So they could definitely bring back a Black Widow, but it wouldn't be the original.

      Of course, most of that went out the window with Cap's ending. If you're hopping between realities, then it shouldn't have been possible for Cap to just remain in the past and grow old into the present. Unless we're seeing a different reality's Cap, and that scene wasn't set in the original reality...

    OK, hopefully this doesnt become too long, because I had a lot of thoughts coming out of Endgame. Like most other comments that are here, spoilers ahead.

    First, what a fanboy payoff that movie was! So many fan service moments from the comics, all squished into a 3 hour extravaganza. Most squished into the last hour actually... Highlights including the 'Hail Hydra' comment in the lift, and Mjolnir flying back to Steve's hand in the final fight. That got a cheer from the crowd in the know.

    But I had questions as well. Retconning the Sanctum Sanctorum into Avengers closed a few plot holes, but that whole time heist thing created others.

    Most of which I can accept but a couple raise longer term questions. And yes, I know the whole explanation of multiverses etc they were trying to avoid, but they happened none the less. The Loki one being the main one, but did Steve return Mjolnir to Thor in the Dark World heist?

    They'd be on a different timeline now, as their personal history established that the whole 'grab the stone and disappear' event didnt happen, and if Mjolnir wasnt returned (Steve took it with him, so probably returned it). Timeline 2, 3, or whatever. As a sideline, thats also a neat way to introduce mutants into the non-mutant lore. But, thats a different timeline, let them handle it as they will.

    Third big one being the 'Hail Hydra' comment, and what that would mean in the Capt America movies after Avengers. Winter Soldier goes down a whole lot differently if they werent looking to neutralise Steve from the start. There would be others.

    But that whole 'different timeline' thing gets broken right at the end, and left the biggest question for me. When Steve popped back to put all the stones back, and didnt return, we got THAT ending, with him eventually appearing on the park bench, all nice and old.

    Doesnt that change all their histories though? How could Peggy have gone through her whole life with Steve and nobody notice? He's been hanging around for 70-something years partnered with one of the higher profile SHIELD identities. She (and he) got her dance, presumably a week-ish after Steve originally went into the ice.

    Its that one thing I cant explain or totally accept. Any help? Am I missing something basic, or is it a pretty big plot hole?

    As for the movie as a whole, loved it. That hole in no way hurt the movie itself, its just a niggle. Which most of the 'issues' I have are. Will see it again, for sure, which I rarely do in the cinemas. There was just so much to unwind from it that I need to see it again just to enjoy the rollercoaster.

      I didn't mind the time travel explanation they gave (it's basically the DBZ version of time travel) but the Steve ending was a pretty big plot hole, contradicting their own rules.

      I can let that one slide personally though as I thought it gave Captain America a great ending (even if it didn't quite make sense)

        Yeah that was my takeaway as well. As I said, it didnt break the enjoyment of the movie, so was just a strange niggling question to ponder. The ending we got was satisfying enough to let it slip though.

        And the contradiction was what drove the question. Once he stayed in the past that should have just created a separate timeline and that'd be the end of it. I can think of a few ways they could resolve it, but by their own rules of the movie he shouldnt have been on that bench at that moment.

        On the other side, its probably something they can retcon later if its needed. There are plenty of options to do so, either with characters already there or ones they havent used yet.

        Correct me if I am wrong, but I seem to remember The Ancient One making a comment that the Infinity Stones is what kept a stable flow of time and seemed to allow these divergent timelines without messing with the past/present/future. Once the stones were destroyed by Thanos, would that not mean all the divergent timelines became one and that's why old Captain America is in the same timeline as everyone else? Also why Black Widow can't come back? I may be remembering differently. I'm seeing it again tomorrow night just to make sure. :-)

        Answering to @grunt and @jamesh as well.

        I'm sure that they didn't break so stupidly the very same rules they created. The explanation is readily available: old Cap returned to the main timeline after living his life with Peggy in an alternate timeline. We know that Peggy dies of natural causes around the time of the events of the Winter Soldier, so I imagine that Cap returned to the main timeline somewhere after that. (Bucky's behaviour hints that he knew what was going on, so it's likely that Cap contacted him when he first returned).

        It's kind of fun to imagine that timeline: Steve and Peggy dismantle Hydra from the inside out in 1970, perhaps rescuing Bucky, who never murders Howard and Martha. He becomes a sort of positive role/uncle figure for young Tony. In 1995 he meets Carol and tells her where to find the Power and maybe the Reality and Mind stones and destroy them, foiling permanently Thanos's plans and in turn, most of the events of the MCU movies. he gets to enjoy his last years with Peggy in peace and finally returns to the main timeline to pass the mantle to Sam, and perhaps be a mentor to the new avengers.

          As I've said a couple of times, there are plenty of ways to explain it, they just didnt give one. So until they do, its a hole. Thats all. Nothing big, and certainly nothing that hurt the movie or the moment, just that I saw a hole that wasnt explained. Until it is, its all guesses.

          I do like all the speculation, dont get me wrong. Some of the ideas are great, yours included. I can think of numerous ways to answer it as well but its still speculation until they do. I just think it could have been left out of the movie, and maybe used as a blu ray extra for more impact.

          It was the one bit of fan service that didnt quite fit the movie for me.

            Hmm, however, is it really a hole if they clearly stated the rules? If they say "whenever someone presses this button, a cookie comes out" and then show people pressing the button ten times and obtaining 10 cookies, do we need to wonder where some dude's cookie came from just because we didn't see him pressing the button?

            I get what you are saying, knowing for sure what and how it happened would be great (and indeed, perhaps something cool for a home video extra) but there's no need to wonder if it's a plothole. I personally wouldn't mind if they left the details up for speculation.

      My thoughts on the altered timelines are that, in theory, as shown in the conversation between Banner and the Sorceress Supreme, once the stone is replaced back into an altered timeline, that timeline corrects back to its original flow, meaning that, once all of the stones were put back, all altered timelines would re-converge back into the timeline that we've watched all films take place in. Technically, Cap would only have to replace the stones an instant after they were taken. Technically. Given the existence of Pym Particles (more could be made by Pym and given to Cap before he left), many stones could be sneaked back into the place before anyone was the wiser. Other's by meeting himself and other Avengers during their time heist missions and changing the original events of the heists to make it easier to replace the stones (ie. stopping himself, Tony, and Lang at the start of their heist and telling them to go back to the 70's instead, ensuring that Loki didn't have a chance to get away and that Cap didn't have to play Hydra agent or fight himself in 2014). Other stones, I'm not sure about. As I commented below, this premise would make a great spinoff tv series.

        It wouldnt be that easy. Its happened to them, so its part of their history. Anything that changes it again would just create ANOTHER timeline.

        First Avengers movie, Loki gets mouth clamped and via the tesseract carted off to Asgard. We saw that in the movie, as did the key characters so its part of their history. It also led to Thor 2, and so on. As per the various discussions, thats happened so cant be changed, yet it has.

        So its a new timeline. And now its in Steve's and Tony's past, also cant be changed. So anything that tries to fix it (like going back and telling Steven and Tony to go straight to 1970) creates another branch. It might bring things back in line with the original, but there would still be a timeline in Steve and Tony's past where Loki disappeared with the terreract.

        All that timey-wimey stuff gets confusing. What it does do is introduce the multiverse, which I think will play a big role from phase 4 onwards. The bigger the baddies get in Marvel, the more cosmic they get. Plenty are impacting the multiverse as a whole, Thanos was just hurting the one.

        The whole end moment with Rogers on the bench breaks it all though, which was the second part of my comment. Doesnt hurt the movie or moment in the slightest, but its a paradox regardless.

        By the rules they establish, he shouldnt have been on that bench at that moment. He wasnt a part of various lives in the past, he cant just appear as if he was. It breaks way too much of the established history of the MCU as a whole.

      There's no need to really worry about timelines and junk. The Ancient One's job is to protect the natural order. The Ancient One knew about the plan, shares your concerns, has access to the time stone, wields it far more precisely than the Pym particle jumps and presumably would have spoken with Steve in depth when he returned it. The joke with Ant Man's aging mirrors what Strange did with the apple when he first found the Eye. Surely the Sorcerer Supreme can do a bit better than that.

      The most important take away is that the writers understand the golden rule of time travel, never invalidate previous works. It would have been so easy for Infinity War to not matter. The classic time travel approach would have retconned entire movies. Instead Infinity War matters exactly as much as it did before. I was worried before I saw Endgame because time travel is such a tightrope but they did it well.

      That said, if you want a long term question, did everyone Peter Parker goes to school with get snapped? Far From Home probably takes place around the same time Ant Man and the Wasp did but eventually they're going to have to deal with the fallout of having half the universe five years younger than they should be. So far it seems like everyone either got snapped as a package deal or didn't, but the further we stray from the main cast the more awkward that coincidence gets. Ned must have been snapped based on what we see, but was his whole family snapped as well? They're not going to give up MJ. Wakanda is probably going to get weird because they committed to who got snapped early on.

        The most important take away is that the writers understand the golden rule of time travel, never invalidate previous works. Thats the question for me. Did they, simply by reinserting Steve into the same timeline? As a plot hole it potentially invalidates almost all the MCU since First Avenger.
        Far From Home probably takes place around the same time Ant Man and the Wasp did I believe its been stated that Far From Home happens right after Endgame, which is why its the official end of Phase 3.
        So far it seems like everyone either got snapped as a package deal or didn't See above. I was wondering the same thing. We'll find out in a few weeks though so wont have to wait long.
        Wakanda is probably going to get weird because they committed to who got snapped early on. Yeah, there are repercussions to the Snappening, and the Unsnappening that should be felt in the MCU for years to come. I hope they deal with it in Black Panther 2 myself, it makes for an interesting side plot.

          All the movies up until Endgame play out the same way they did before the movie was released. They're as important as they ever were. Steve raises a theoretical problem but it's easily fixed. Steve does what he set out to do. Although we'll probably see splinters from the other timelines show up it's safe to say he made sure everything was neat and tidy on paper. With his job done instead of returning he goes back to live a life with Peggy Carter. We've got two timelines going at this point. The 'natural' timeline and the Carter/Rogers timeline.
          The Carter/Rogers timeline has no real impact on anything because it's a separate timeline from the natural timeline we've been watching. There are two things that make it a bit muddy. First, Steve shows back up in the natural timeline at the very end. Given the amount of time he had and everything we've seen happen it's safe to say jumping back to the natural timeline after Peggy dies to pass the torch and set everything straight wouldn't be a problem.
          Second, the Ancient One explains there are issues with having multiple timelines. The thing is that even though the Ancient One and Doctor Strange are the only real experts they never go into detail on the mechanics. Simply having multiple timelines isn't a problem. From Steve's perspective it exists for up to half his life, but the Ancient One's main concern seems to be about resolution of the timelines rather than how many alternate timelines exist or how long someone from the natural timeline stays there.

          It could quite easily be solved by saying the Ancient One, who is known to bend the rules, gave him a deal. A worthy champion could definitely offer something valuable enough to be rewarded with a happily ever after. That's not to say that's how it played out or that the writers know how it played out, but there are plenty of similar routes that fix the problem. Hell, it could just be any version of Loki.

            Yeah fair enough. Its not a hard thing to sort out, I'm just saying that until its answered, its a plot hole.

            They established rules and then straight up went against them in the same movie - in THAT timeline, he shouldnt have had a happy ending with Peggy. Her history is too well established, so it had to be a separate timeline. While they've left a couple of holes along the way, Marvel dont really contradict themselves so bluntly like that. Or they havent that I can remember, outside a couple of things like recastings.

            Even on the few times it looks like they do, like the Sanctum Sanctorum not seemingly helping in the Battle of New York, they addressed it eventually, so I have no doubt they'll close the hole. As you say, there are plenty of ways.

            They just didnt in the movie is all.

        That said, if you want a long term question, did everyone Peter Parker goes to school with get snapped?
        If you rule out the possibility that his entire class was snapped, it'd stand to reason that half of Peter's class mates are now adults in college/work, and he'll be joined by new class mates who were previously five years younger than him.

        That seems like a decent way to explain why some characters are gone and other new ones are replacing them. And in the same way all the original Avengers survived the snap, it wouldn't be any more of a coincidence for all of Peter, MJ, Ned, and Flash to be disintegrated. That's if they feel the need to explain anything.

          Theres a one in sixteen chance of all 4 of those key characters being dusted or all 4 surviving. Not impossible, but highly improbable. Thats roughly 94% either way by the way.

          I can put Flash down to chance as he was a secondary character for the most part, but even just Ned, MJ, and Peter all getting dusted is a 1 in 8 chance, which is still highly unlikely.

          As unlikely as it would be, the whole class getting dusted as a group effort starts to make more sense. I dont think that happened by the way, but it explains the chances far easier than those key characters all getting the same supposedly randomised fate.

            What are the odds on Hawkeye's whole family being snapped?

            I don't think it needs an explanation as to why they were all snapped, just go with it.

              I'll happily just go with it, the same way I'll go with snapping your fingers being literally how you control the Infinity Gauntlet even though it's just an expression, it's just one of those things like Jane's absence where can't help but see directly behind the scenes. The main MCU cast can sort of just chalk it up to chance, everything works out for those characters either way, but each main cast member has a massive supporting cast too. It's going to give us some insight strange glimpse into the value of the actors and characters.

              There's tons of really cool potential stories there but as we move back into the street level MCU it's really going to push the limits of coincidence.

      Steve is actually very explainable.

      Time loop. Steve gets frozen in ice, wakes up, everything happens up to end game.

      He then goes back in time, knowing what's going to happen, having read Peggi's history (no way he would not have) and so on, so when he goes back, he knows when to make contact, explains the lot to her, and they sneak off to live there life. That's my theory on it anyway.

        She didnt sneak off though. She played a role in SHIELD pretty much up to her death. A significant role at that. Theres her history as per the Agent Carter series, theres her niece who was guided by Peggy, her SHIELD role in 1970 (I believe she was a director at that point) as shown during Endgame, and various other events she would have been a part of along the way. She also had a very active role with Howard Stark through all that, effecting Tony's history as well.

        If Steve had been a part of that history, someone would have noticed. It was a spy organisation after all, its kind of what they did. As nice an ending as it was, it does set up a lot of plot holes just by being there. That history could all change, but only as a different timeline.

        So by remaining within that timeline, as per being on that bench at the end, it raises questions. Which might be answered, or not. As we dont have an answer, some of us are asking those questions.

        Which doesnt ruin the movie or the moment in the slightest.

          LMD's maybe, it would require Steve to use the time stone for personal gain which goes against his character plus the LMD possibly becoming aware of it true origin and going skynet.

          It would be a cool way too tie agents of shield back into the MCU.

    I loved Endgame an absolute ton, right up until the ending. Two things have been gnawing on my spine ever since...

    Cap's ending is so out of character. How could he live his life knowing what was about to happen and just ignore it? He's living the high life, while Bucky is a murder puppet. It really felt off to me.

    Then theres the whole "return them exactly as they were", would love to see the scene with Cap putting the Reality stone back into Jane, not to mention the whole Loki theft thing changing the timeline from that point, Cap wouldn't even return to the same timeline from that point on his park bench. Not to mention finding a rubix cube to stick it back into. Did he just hand the Soul Stone back to Red Skull for safe keeping, without so much as a trade for Black Widow?

    Other than that, and for all the other points mentioned in the article, I loved Endgame, when I watch it again, reckon I'll switch it off when the battle is won and leave it at that.

      Then theres the whole "return them exactly as they were", would love to see the scene with Cap putting the Reality stone back into Jane, not to mention the whole Loki theft thing changing the timeline from that point, Cap wouldn't even return to the same timeline from that point on his park bench. Not to mention finding a rubix cube to stick it back into. Did he just hand the Soul Stone back to Red Skull for safe keeping, without so much as a trade for Black Widow?

      This premise would make an amazing tv series.

        Thinking more about this. A few titles:
        Stones
        Infinity Stones
        Infinity Steves
        Stone Cold Steve Rogers
        Mr Rogers Rock Collection
        Captain America and the Rainbow Coloured Death Rocks
        Getting Stoned
        A Captain in Time
        Cap to the Future
        Six Stones, One Man, And A Hammer
        Game of Stones

      At least I'm not the only one that found the Rogers ending a little jarring. And like you, I did wonder how he got the stones back where they should have been. Some would have been easy, others... not so much.

      I think ending it at the moment he doesnt return would work as a good ending point as well. Leave the rest in suspense and leave the happy ending to the blu ray extras. Then use the multiverse thing as a way to get the shield to Falcon, or something like a Doctor Strange credits scene.

      The Loki theft is the presence of the TV show that's happening Disney+, so we are going to get alt timeline stuff now.

      There is also going to be a Blackwidow show set before she joins SHIELD I think.

      You're not following the train of possibilities in full. What we'd have here is a 1970 Steve knowing /everything/ that could happen in the next 50 years and stop it from ever happening. Since you mention Bucky, that's an easy one: Steve has the knowledge that Hydra infiltrated SHIELD 50 years earlier and what's best, Hydra doesn't know he knows. Eliminating Hydra and saving Bucky from murder-conditioning is a foregone conclusion. Thanos? Ultron? He knows that Carol arrives at Earth in 1995, over a full decade before any of those events. have her destroy the Mind stone and both of those villains get foiled beforehand.

    I loved Endgame and think it's a worthy end to the MCU saga, even though Spiderman: Far From Home will apparently be the actual end. That said, if I think too deeply about it the time travel mechanics and the rules of the Infinity Stones, according to the previous films and lore, it kind of falls apart. That said, that said, I think that's also the case with many stories that toy with time mechanics and magical, all-powerful mcguffins.

    Like Star Wars (ie. ships and lasers being audible in the vacuum of space), I feel that a healthy suspension of disbelief and acceptance that that's just the way things are is required to really enjoy the film, or just about any MCU film for that matter.

    I also look forward to seeing it again now that I can fully enjoy the slow build-up at the start, knowing what it's building up to.

      I'm wondering how they'll handle the 5 years later part in Far From home. A few characters from Homecoming (Ned, Michelle, etc) must have been dusted as well for them to still be the same age, so how did everything get back to normal so fast for them to be on a school excursion to Europe just a few weeks later?

      Given the impact on the world after the first dusting, I can imagine there's going to be some fallout of everyone coming back so long after. People getting remarried, getting death notices annulled (getting 'brought back to life' after a legal mistake is a nightmare), things like that. I cant imagine returning to school the next day would be easy on the teachers either.

    I feel like the only 'phase 3' thing that will come out of Spider-man is an explanation whh everything is suddenly back to normal for him when it's supposed to be 5 years since he went to school.

    Even then I'm guessing they'll just say all the kids were turned to dust so they're still in the same grade again.

    Edit: that was supposed to be a reply to @geth

    Last edited 29/04/19 3:37 pm

    Amazingly in my session you have all those superheroes on the screen doing their thing was huge, so much screaming and cheering, but the cheer for Spidey's returned had people jumping to their feet, it was truly one of the most amazing moments I have had in 40 years of goign to movies. It was even louder than cap and the hammer. (best part of any Marvel film ever, there i said it)

    I love that every single main avenger had an arc, both in the movie and overall. Each got what they deserved, or was fitting. Cap has always been my favourite, I was so convinced he was going to die, it never crossed my mind that he would ended up 'living' a full life.

      Cap and the hammer got the biggest cheer in my showing. Got a tear of joy from me, such a fan service moment. The whole 'on the left' moment with all the portals slowly opening got the next one.

    Wanted to add a bit that I haven't seen being talked about much, Captain Marvel. I've never been on the Brie Larson/Captain Marvel hate train (I quite enjoyed her film) but I was a little worried with the talk of her being a new key character or even leader for the franchise that she'd overshadow the classic Avengers (the ones that have had stories building up to Endgame for a decade).

    In the end though, I thought she was handled perfectly, they made it pretty clear she was insanely powerful (even in comparison to most of the Avengers) but they still kept her in the background so the OG Avengers could get their proper send off. Her, Sam, Rhodes, etc can take the spotlight in the next Avengers but this one really needed to be about Captain America, Iron Man, Thor, etc.

      Part of me thought it was a bit of a copout to send her off for the whole movie, but most of me was the same as you. It let the core characters get their sendoff.

      I thought her role played out very similarly to Superman's in Justice League though. Not a factor for most of the movie, then suddenly she wins the day. It felt a little cheap given all the hype in the leadup to the Capt Marvel movie.

      I wondered why they didnt contact her before the time heist thing as well, just to get her to come back in case things went wrong. Still, overall I really had no problems with it.

      Her no sell of the Thanos headbutt was classic though. And quite simply set her up as a key player moving forward. If she can take that so easily, how powerful is she?

    Does NO ONE have a problem with bringing people back 5 years after they disappeared? They essentially made their world in SO many ways worse than it was.

    Picture this: Husband, wife, 8 year old, 5 year old. Husband dusted. 8 year old dusted. BOOM.. they come back and find.. oh look, mummy has remarried and had another 6 month old baby.. Oh and now my 5 year old second child is 10 years old which is older than my FIRST child and OMG I just broke my brain.

    Or worse, someone in Hawkeye's situation goes and offs himself and mum comes back with kids and 'what happened to daddy'?

    They essentially created such a disjointed and broken world... cause they thought they should..

      You think that's bad? What about the people who got dusted mid flight only to come back to life and fall to their deaths?

    It was a good movie (not great) but the biggest problem I had was that they spent most of the movie reminding us how they couldn't change the timeline and had to return the stones back to the time they were taken. But when they wiped out past Thanos they basicly destroyed the MCU, so Guardians Of The Galaxy Vol 1 & 2 never happen as well as most other movies involving Thanos including Infinity War. And then they turn around and remind us again that they need to return the stones to keep the flow of time. Very sloppy writing, and they should have done some research from Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure which is the best example of a movie doing time travel right.

      All of that still happened. It is still the past of these people and this timeline in particular. The timelines they messed up are alternate ones and most of them got off better from the whole time meddling. For example, the alternate timeline created in 2014 is one where Thanos simply vanished as he traveled to the main timeline's 2019.

      Not just Thanos, GotG1 & 2 didn't involve him much, I'm sure Ronan would have still taken the Power Stone for himself and attacked Xandar. What you should really be thinking about is how they would take place without Gamora. Only real solution here would be if Cap made sure Nebula returned to the present time before Thanos could pick up her memories.

      No matter how you look at it, theres alternates, and none that would bring Cap to the park bench :(

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