Game Of Thrones Is Too Far Gone To Save

When the dust is all settled and the fire has turned into ashes, one thing about Game of Thrones will always be clear: They shouldn’t have tried to end the whole damn show in 13 episodes.

We spoil the episode in its entirety, and also talk about differences between the show and the books. However, we do not discuss any leaked show spoilers, and any speculation about what might come in future episodes is just that.

This week, Kirk and I discuss “The Bells,” the penultimate episode of Game of Thrones and a really big disappointment. We talk about what we liked (the production values) and what we didn’t like (pretty much everything else), digging deep into the unearned transformation of Daenerys Targaryen, the dreary reunion of Jaime and Cersei Lannister, and the shameful death of Varys the Spider.

If one thing has become clear from this season of Game of Thrones, it’s that trying to tie together all of the threads of such a sprawling show in just two shortened final seasons was a massive mistake. Foreshadowing is not the same thing as character growth, and Daenerys’s sudden switch from Lady Who Gets Brutal Vengeance On Her Enemies to Actual Genocidal Maniac was tough to buy. On the Targaryen madness scale, we saw her go from a 2 to a 10 without getting to watch her journey from 3 through 9—because showrunners David Benioff and D.B. Weiss just wanted the show to end.

Plus, they did Jaime, Tyrion, Grey Worm, Varys, and Cersei real dirty, as Kirk and I discuss. Even the Clegane Bowl felt a little underwhelming, thanks to the show’s weird pacing and rushed nature.

Oh well. At least maybe one day we’ll get the books.

As always, you can find Splitscreen on Apple Podcasts and Google Play. Reach us at [email protected] with any and all questions, requests, and suggestions.


Comments

    Why is everyone so shocked by this... The shows writers are absolute hacks. As soon as they ran out of source material the writing literally turned to ****. Ever since the weird Dorne part of the series, it's been fan fiction at best. The show has literally gone the way of Dexter. Anyone that can't see that is blinded by the high production value.

      Dexter could have redeemed itself a little if it skipped that final scene.

      True Blood was also fun but went so bonkers near the end I stopped watching which is pretty rare, I'm usually in till the end.

      The Walking Dead has been going too long. At least GoT is finishing.

        I have said the exact sentence, "if this wasn't the final season of Game of Thrones, I would stop watching because it has become nonsense just like Walking Dead did."

        True Blood got absolutely terrible much earlier than TWD or GoT.

          I'm not sure where True Blood got bonkers to be sure as I didn't follow it up at all after I stopped watching. I loved the premise and the setting so much though. It had so much potential....

            When the fairies starting turning up everywhere maybe?

      In its defence, the Dexter TV show was a lot better than the books it was based on. The show's ending might have sucked, but the it would have gone off the rails a lot sooner if they'd continued adapting the source material past the first book.

      GoT is kind of the opposite, where the world feels so different once they ran out of source material.

    It’s kind of showing now that the reason they wanted to finish in a hurry is that with out the guidance of the books they couldn’t actually write and develop the series to fill the story and have the proper arc for characters.

    Is it true they are being considered by Disney for a Star Wars series? Or something for Disney+? If that’s true Disney should reconsider.

      They shouldn't have omitted so much book content in that case.

        There's so much content in the books that it'd be impossible to cover, and GRRM is working at a snails pace and will probably die before he finishes the series.

          I've heard rumours (likely complete bullshit, but who knows) that GRRM had a deal with D&D/HBO not to provide substantial updates or release the books while the show is running. Time will tell I guess.

            GRRM has already said the rumour is wrong. As he said, he makes millions for every book (as do his publishers), there's no way he wouldn't release it if he could. The fact is he's just a slow as shit writer who keeps getting distracted by other ideas :P

      They shouldn't have omitted so much book content in that case.

    I still want Dany or Jon to sit on the throne as the last survivor, Kings Landing rebuilt, the camera to close on their face, then pan out to show their head on a pike with smoke and fire rising over the city to the sound of fighting. Fade to black.

    I must be watching something else, last night was amazing. It has been very clear, for a very long time than Dany was always going to go to the dark side. There was zero shock from the whole room full we had watching last night.

    Personally I wanted something more from the end of Cersei but other than that I seriously do not understand the outrage

      You haven't read the books?
      Season 8 has taken an epic, intricate story and turned it into a telenovela.

      It's become a throwaway 'The CW' style show (ie Archer / The Flash). Not exactly bad by any means. Quite good in a vacuum. But very, very poor considering where it came from and the source material.

        I'm a fan of the books but have seen the show as its own thing for a few years now, so I agree with Blakeavon. The show has stumbled a lot over the last couple of years (including throughout this season) but I did very much enjoy last night's episode.

        I admit that I was initially a bit disappointed with the death of Jamie and Cersei but ignoring the books, it made sense. TV Jamie has never really been able to pull himself away from Cersei so the two of them dying together fit well.

        I'd be upset if that's the ending for them that we get in the books but in the show it's not too bad.

        This is NOT the books, there was always going to be a point when the show went away from the gloriously crafted detail of Martin. If US tv writers could write that well, why would writers like Martin be legendary?!!!!

        Why are some expecting the show to be at that same level awesome? Maybe the problem lies in the fact some people can’t control their expectations to a real level?

        Yes the show is not on the same level of the books, nor have I ever expected it to be. Just like with the Lotr films, that didn’t stop me enjoying them for what they succeeded to do, instead of focusing on how they failed.

          Yes what you said. So funny to see people so salty because they didn't get the outcome THEY wanted. I mean have a cry you bunch of sooks.

        Lol please. GoT at it's worst is still so far above 95% of other television, especially the shit tier shows you mentioned.

        This season is rushed, sure, and it's definitely suffered without book material, but it's still great.

          Yes. Season 7 and 8 have only been disappointing because of how amazingly good the previous seasons were. GoT is still leagues above just about any other television show on right now.

          Im also not wild about the we all say *everything* good about the TV shows has to be credited back to Martin, and everything bad is because he hasn't written that far.

      I’m just annoyed because it was so predictable that she was going to flip her lid. I’m annoyed there was zero shock. I just desperately wanted them to tease at her going crazy. If they had her perched on the wall when the bells were ringing, face contorting with internal struggle, making you think she was going to snap, then suddenly take off with the dragon, teasing lots of low shots of the civilians running panicked to make you uncomfortable, and then instead she just goes and perches on the red keep and dragon roar to end the battle. That would have been a good plot misdirection. It would have build character tension, misdirected audiences expectations, and would have really played to what I wish her character was. And it would have looked damn cool having a dragon roaring while perched on top of the red keep.

      But that’s the thing... this comes down to what I wish her character was.

      Don’t get me started on Jaimie and the aborted 8 season character development arc... that was bad on all levels.

        You said it yourself: "What I wish her character was"

        I've started watching the show in parallel with the new season and in the first two seasons Danerys comes across as somewhat unhinged, pushed along by self-belief more than anything. Frankly it seems to fit her characterisation

          Yeah, that’s why I said it with the italicised “I”. It doesn’t matter what I wanted, they obviously had a plan for her character, because it was foreshadowed to heck. I was hoping her character would be more complex that she actually is turning out to be.

        You are actually crying about the opposite to what most people are crying about. Most butthurts out there "didn't like that Dany was suddenly a monster" even though it's obvious she is as looney as the rest of her incest riddled family.

          Shows that they’re damned if they do, damned if they don’t; and also damned if they do but for other opposite reason. It’s an extra level of ‘no win’.

      Aye. I was disappointed that Dany gave in to the dark side, and I was disappointed Jaime made the choice that he did, but I think just because you're disappointed in what the characters do, doesn't make the episode bad. It was a depressing episode, but a good one (in my book at least).

      Couldn't agree more. If her switch to brutality was such a shock than clearly you haven't been paying attention. "Will take the throne back with blood and fire", remember?

      I am glad this episode was packed with some actual progress after the last few episodes of disappointment. The sudden and brutal killing of characters is what early day GoT was known for, and I am glad to see it for at least an episode.

      For Dany. Theres a difference between, will fairly happily kill her enemies quite gruesomely, To absolutely nuke an entire city of 1 million people. I saw the 'she goes a bit mad' coming from seasons ago, but i thought shed' nuke the red keep, kill a few people like she did varys where it was questionable. But to spend like 40minutes of an episode (not an exaggeration) just melting every single piece of the entire city filled mostly with random civilians was certainly a little out of left field.

        Not really, she quite clearly gives an explanation in the episode and it indeed goes back to many seasons ago when she was freeing slaves with a highly flawed and contradictory morals.

        What she did in this episode made absolute sense to those with a good memory. Some people acting like it came from nowhere

          Dude, why downvote @thearbiter117? That was a perfectly reasonable response that wasn’t inflammatory or disrespectful in any way. There’s already issues with how automoderation acts on this site, why make it worse? I wish people would just disagree using words, and save downvotes for bad behaviour.

          Oh yeah, i remember when she killed every single person in mereen, slaves included, or when she escaped being held at the dothraki capital then killed every single dothraki man, women and child. Oh wait thats not what happened? She only killed the "bad guys".
          Whereas this time she spends half an hour killing literally everything in site before she even gets to the red keep.
          So yeah its a big jump from kill the people who have actually done wrong, to kill literally everybody in sight, when 99% of those are just random citizens

            She pointed out her reasoning quite clearly.

              When did she point out her reasoning for destroying the entirety of kings landing? with all 1million random civilians in it?
              It always seemed like she was thinking of nuking the red keep, and all military installations (like she did with the giant crossbows) and sure have some collateral damage. But it never seemed she was implying she would just destroy literally everything in sight, when 99% of it is just peoples houses.
              She spent the first 2 minutes destroying basically all the important military targets, then 30+ minutes killing every civilian she could see, then another few minutes on the red keep.
              Like i said, i expected her to go a bit crazy and destroy the red keep, and maybe a few extra people she 'shouldnt' have (like varys). But in this one episode it jumped way too quick from that to just kill literally everything that breathes.
              She has instantly become a bigger villain than cersei, the night king and the slavers at mereen combined in one act.
              Basically she goes from the punisher (antihero kill bad guys with no remorse) to fucking darth vader in episode 3, killing younglings and anyone else, because lol why not.

              When? I agree that this turn for her was predictable but where in the show did she say anything about her reason for killing innocents?
              All we saw was the bells start ringing, she looked at the red keep angrily for a minute and then started killing everyone in sight.

                She outlined her reasoning earlier in the episode and the episode the week before as well. Also when she was freeing the slaves afar she reasoning was stunningly flawed

      I think it's just simply that people loved how well established and 'real' the show felt in the beginning and how much like a cartoon it feels now.

      Clegane Bowl turns out to be a deleted scene from Star Wars, Jaime seems to be just fine with his stabbed and messed up stomach, Arya miraculously finds what might as well have been a unicorn in the middle of a battle, Tyrion wasn't beheaded for high treason, Varys doesn't even try to hide his aims and just blurts out his desires as soon as he sees Jon where previously he plotted for literal decades under the eye of Robert Baratheon to keep eyes on Dany should she prove a better ruler, Scorpions that all previously had perfect accuracy and massive range don't even come close to touching a dragon despite their deliberate preperations, planning and expectations and the show runners made a massive sequence destroying all of kings landing in fire and the only two people with speaking roles that get burned by it (the hound and mountain don't count, that was the fall that did them in - Cersei and Jaime come closer, but it still wasn't the fire itself that did it) were introduced in that same episode (this is a lack of planning on their part, how about introducing some specific people in Kings Landing in S7 before they're all killed by Dany in S8, that way I'd have felt the impact of the scene much more than I did). I could go on, but you get the idea.

      While I did think Dany's turn was obvious, there was a reason many people thought the change seemed unearned - we saw glimpses of her madness in Mereen, Glimpses last season, a few more this season, but her actual shift didn't seem right for her character - burn innocents to get to Cersei - sure, burn them for no reason? Not even head for Cersei straight away? Not so much. She should have flown straight to the red keep and burned it to the ground - she was driven to madness by Cersei, she would have wanted to head that way straight away given the (lazy) narrative set up of fridging Missandei last episode - the person responsible and her executioner were both there, she knew that, but instead she potters around burning civilians first? Her character arc didn't setup or satisfactorily explain that, and that was what the whole episode was like. Yeah, Jaime returning to Cersei kind of makes sense, but his decision to do so happens in a moment, where everything else in his arc took whole seasons to be realised. It was rushed, it didn't feel earned.

      On a technical level the episode was brilliant, but there's good reason people call the writing rubbish. We came to expect so much more from the first two seasons, and while S3-6 were shaky (and I'll never fogive what they did the Sandsnakes and the Dorne plot) they still held up as fairly logical and reasonably consistent and then S7 and S8 happen. All of a sudden they don't have a patch on the rest of the show and people notice that sort of change. The tone of the whole story changed, the characters lacked the direction they had, the world felt both less brutal and less believable, and while some of that could be forgiven in S7 in their attempt to bring all the characters to where they needed to be it can't be in S8 when they were already there. S1-2 were purely, strictly, substance over spectacle. S3-6 tried to strike a balance (sacrificing substance to some degree, getting progressively worse as they went) and then S7-8 just threy all logic, consistency and even character development under the bus to get to the end as quickly as possible. Maybe the writing isn't that bad in a vacuum, but if I've been fed an incredible entree, and a pretty good, though a little disappointing, main course a mediocre desert is sure as hell going to leave a bad taste in the mouth and leave me thinking worse of the main course. Our expectations were set high and utterly dashed by the end.

      I wanted high fantasy with gritty realism after S1-2 and instead just got high fantasy. Fine by itself, but not at all what I was promised, not at all what the show built its name on and not at all what it could have been.

        My wife is a nurse, she reckoned Jamie had a punctured lung and according to her, you can keep going with that for a while (though it will eventually kill you of not treated - so Euron was right)

          Sure, I can buy surviving for a bit, but look at how far he was from the Red Keep. I feel like walking what looks to be a couple of Ks with a punctured lung and massive blood loss should at least leave you tired by the time you get there.

          I don't know, I could be totally wrong, but it sure didn't feel like he should have been able to walk and move the way he did once he found Cersei. Whether that's on the writing, acting or direction I can't say, but what I was seeing just didn't add up to me in that scene.

        So much can be reasoned away, but anyone who spends that long and that many words is not interested in such things. You would have watched the show with folded arms and unless it delivered exactly what you wanted, you will have always written an essay.

        No amount of good writing or writing in general can match that level of exaggerated expectations

          My expectations were set at the level of the first two series. Is it unreasonable to think given the increases in budget, the wealth of time they had at their disposal and the amount of talent they have in the production team that they could manage to merely maintain the standards they already set? I loved Breaking Bad, it left me with lofty expectations and it delivered on them - I write no essays but ones filled with praise for that series. I don't go into S8 hoping or expecting to hate what I see, and I'd love to be proven wrong in the final episode, but GoT just isn't what it used to be.

          If you liked it - I'm glad. I'm happy some does like that episode, that you do enjoy GoT as it is now, but don't act as though it's my expectations that are the problem, when almost every fan has been at least a little disappointed by these last two seasons. The start of the series promised one thing, the end delivered another. You obviously don't mind that change, but there's a good reason so many do.

    I think it's fine, I'm still enjoying it, but it could've done with two seasons in my personal opinion. One to wrap up the Night King saga rather than just offing him in episode 3, and a final season to focus on the road to the throne. It's all been a bit of a rush.

    Great camera and effects. Really lazy writing.
    Over the last two years, I imagined it would be a fighting retreat from Winterfell with lots of sacrifice and hardships. Maybe a delaying action somewhere like that really long strategic bridge at castle Frey. Survivors rock up to Kings Landing with the dead hot on their heels. Parley parley... let us in etc. some good dialogue and an uneasy truce. Hesitant handshakes all round. Clegane Bowl on a high tower. Not a stairwell with a green screen. Undead attack. Big fight. Goodies win. Inevitable betrayal by Cersei. Etc etc.

    I think I would have preferred something like that to just seeing the writers break all their toys.

    Well shot, looked great, rubbish writing. Meh, i'll still ride out the decaying corpse to the very end.

      People use ‘rubbish writing’ so much these days it has just come to mean ‘writing or decisions I don’t like’. If the writers of the show could write as well as George, his level of writing brilliance wouldn’t be so legendary.

        I hear what your saying, but lets be real here - the TV show is what made Martin a legend as much as his writing.

          Yeah no, his books were highly well respected long before the show was a thing. Yes the show made him a world wide name to common folk.

    People just want neat little fan fiction outcomes to their shows. Fuck ‘em. Danny was always a crazy inbred rage bottle that did some cruel things with consistency. I don’t much care for this new wave of GoF rage. She was always primed to let loose on Westeros.

      People just want neat little fan fiction outcomes to their shows.
      I really don't think that's it, it's more that a lot of people read the books and most of the TV story over the last few years contradicts elements of the books.

      I've mostly separated my personal feelings for the show from the books but do still get annoyed by changes sometimes, so I totally get why people are angry.

        I think thats EXACTLY what they wanted. And elements of the books contradict elements of the books! People are angry because they think everything should be the way THEY want it to be and are acting like a lot of little 2 yo's throwing tantrums when it isn't. They can't just enjoy it for what it is, and that's a rollicking good ride!

          When do the books contradict themself?

          A major reason the series is so popular is due the its consistency - something that was a big part of the show even until it started to stray from the books. It's not about "how I/we want to happen", it's about ignoring years of character development. E.g. Cersei being shown clearly to only care for herself (she even said exactly that in the final of last season) to give up a chance of victory so she could be honorable...

          A great early example is Jaime returning to King's Landing after losing his hand. His whole journey with Brienne was written to show that he'd become honorable rather than selfish and arrogant but then the TV show had him immediately rape Cersei beside their dead son. I have no issue with what he did specifically (it fits for S1 Jaime), it's the fact that it ignores his entire character development with no explanation given.

    I find it hilarious that they are complaining about the characterisation of Dany as going from 2 to 10 on the level of batshit crazy but are completely fine with Luke Skywalker turning into a completely different person off screen.

      There were thirty odd years of character development that led to his behaviour and for some of us, it thoroughly rang true, while others are merely saying it doesn’t ring true because it is not what they personally wanted for his character.

      Also in the case of Dany, eight years of character development led to this point, yet some people think because they didn’t pay attention or it is not what they want, apparently it is someone else’s bad writing. (It can’t possibly be the viewers expectations at fault )

        (It can’t possibly be the viewers expectations at fault )
        Hmm. If you're writing something, to be delivered to an audience, with all the time, money and resources you need to write that thing and after you've finished a lot of people don't like the writing - it's your writing they're responding too. If the writing didn't adequately set up the expectations of the audience, that's the fault of the writing.

        You can subvert audience expectations and be loved for it (see early GoT) or you can satisfy audience expectations (see early GoT) but S7 and S8 didn't manage to either adequately set up or subvert expectations. Unlike in earlier seasons I haven't felt totally surprised or satisfied with any moment in S7 or S8. That's bad writing.

          It’s not bad writing it is just writing and choices you don’t like. Any fool can throw around ‘bad writing’ it is a meaningless phrase thrown around by people by people on the internet because they can’t use big boy words.

          But here’s the thing about subverting stuff, ultimately there comes a point when the point of the story has to over take twists for twists sake. If they added a few extra episodes dragging out the madness further then their would be whiners complaining that the season is dragging too slowly and it shows how they are bad writers (it has happened in other seasons) and on other shows and movies.

          No matter what choices they made, it will always be labeled bad writing and it has nothing to do with the writers here personally, just how some people are in the internet, they think legendary writers grow on trees.

            That's bull. People don't claim bad writing because it's a decision they don't like, nor do they claim good writing because it's one they do - they call bad writing when it's one they don't believe. I wanted Dany to go mental, it fits the themes of the show, it was always the intention with her character, but the way she went mental and especially how it was handled lost me. I couldn't believe she snapped in the particular way she did because that wasn't set up properly in the narrative. I return to my other point, Cersei drove her to madness, Cersei was responsible - directly or indirectly - for all of the losses she faced this season bar Varys and Jon and it does not make any sense for her character to just sit around burning innocents instead of flying straight to the Red Keep. The writers could have set up that turn, but they didn't.

            Obviously that turn didn't ring hollow for you or your friends - great, but it did for a lot of people. Perhaps it's not 'bad writing', perhaps it's our fault we didn't grasp the characters as well as you did, our fault we didn't buy the specifics of her turn, or our fault for expecting something good from a series that previously delivered, but if you're still not seeing why other people call it bad writing, then you're obviously deciding that because you didn't see it that way it isn't that way. That's bull. If you're making something, have all the money, resources and talent to deliver on it, had the option in this case to make a full length series but turned it down, had in this case the freedom to make episodes as long or as short as they needed to be and a lot of people are left disappointed or confused that is on the writers and their writing.

            Finally, lets say they didn't have the freedoms they did, lets say they didn't have the option of a full series nor the extended lengths they had. I think, with just a single scene, Dany's turn - exactly as it was shown - could have been justified (even if I still don't like the specifics of how she turned). Earlier we had the set up that no one in Westeros had any love for her, in stark contrast to how she was always received by the underclasses in Slavers Bay. So, building off that have Dany get off her Dragon as the bells toll, extending her arms to the people of Kings Landing perhaps even mirroring that shot in Mereen with everyone surrounding her adoringly. Dany's face is a broad, welcoming smile to the people she liberated. Then show those people recoiling in fear, the bravest among them bowing stiffly, the rest trying to hide - cut back to Dany's face, her smiling mask slowly slipping - hold on that scene for a few beats until she suddenly appears determined and focused again and then have her go off on her rampage. Tell me, would that have hurt the pacing? To stick for a minute tops in one of the pivotal moments the whole series has been leading too? Granted, I'm hardly an accomplished writer, but this was supposed to be one of the two big moments the whole show was leading too, and instead of giving Dany's turn the room to breathe people really needed to follow exactly why she snapped the way she did they rush past it back to more dragon scenes. That's why I think it was poorly written. I think the scene missed the crux of the moment, it missed, even downright ignored, what people were interested in and it missed what they never would have missed in the earlier scenes. Spectacle over character development was what they went for, and of all the moments not to go that route - that was it. They dropped the ball.

        There were thirty odd years of character development that led to his behaviour and for some of us, it thoroughly rang true, while others are merely saying it doesn’t ring true because it is not what they personally wanted for his character.
        Character development ringing true for you and not others doesn't actually prove anything, and it definitely isn't an objective argument. Your personal perspective plays into something making sense just as much as the perspective of others who disliked Luke's shift. And I say this while actually agreeing with the sentiment that his character arc made a lot of sense to me.

        My issue with Dany wasn't that she lost it, as that was a long time coming... It was how long she spent pissing about roasting the peasantry, ignoring Cersei in the keep. It's one of those things that is so blatant that you go straight past thinking that the character is just being moronic, and thought instead turns to the writer/s controlling them.

        Dany not going straight for Cersei's throat immediately following helping her army breach the city walls doesn't mesh, not even a little. And you can argue all day about how she wanted to punish the people... It all falls flat when the things that spurred her rage almost entirely were basically ignored for no other reason than, "We gotta show the dragon burning all the stuff guys!"

        'Rubbish writing' as a description might not be to your personal liking, but it's on the money for a lot of that episode.

          That is your issue. I was watching it with ten friends, not a single one of them were even remotely phased by that. Yes she wanted the throne and yes that meant she wanted her dead BUT she also wanted to make a statement to the locals, she also wanted to toast Kings Landing and hell you are missing how ‘madness’ works in this context.

          So you wrote all those paragraphs damning the writers for something obvious, but that is only how you and your expectations wanted things to go, that doesn’t make it right. It’s just an opinion

            You could have been watching it with a thousand friends who agreed with you, that would still be irrelevant and you'd still not actually be any more or less correct than a single person who disagreed with all of you.

            It's very easy to talk about things being 'omg so obvious!' from your high horse when you're dealing with hindsight, especially as you blatantly ignore that others might have a different perspective to you on anything.

            It’s just an opinion
            It is, isn't it? Perhaps you should remember that about your own comments as you go about defending it and downvoting anyone who simply disagrees with you.

            Even if the "your opinion is an opinion, but my opinion is the only 'correct' one" shtick you employ as you look down on all us mere peasants is entertaining.

              Have a go at me for being on a high horse, So what do call all those thinking their idea of good writing is the only one that matters and demonising writers for their lack of skill?!! That sounds a little like hypocracy to me. And from where I stand it sounds like you are talking down to me. Funny that really.

              PS our room full of people didn’t all agree, far from it nor did we all like the same things, yet you know what none of us did was whine about ‘bad writing’ al that sort of rubbish. We had grown up discussions, using big boy words and mutual respected, not a ‘bad writing’ phrase in sight.

                I like how you start playing the 'adult' when called on your bullshit... Yet you'll downvote anyone in sight like a child throwing a tantrum if they dare to even simply disagree with you.

                I've also noticed you've mentioned a couple of times about people writing a lot in here like it must mean something like they're super upset, angry, etc, yet you're the one running around defending this on multiple fronts like an angry zealot.

                Amazing.

                  The flaw in your post is that you some how think you know why I downvote people and that is some how is this huge emotional or power thing. Yeah no. I downvote things I dont agree with, upvote things I like or agree with OR even opinions I dont agree with but make some very interesting and well thought out points.

                  People who whine about 'bad writing' (or equally tiresome catch phrases) rarely have the ability to use paragraphs and construct interesting reads. Because they love the 'gotcha' style of internet commenting.

                  but there is a world of difference between writing a few interesting concise paragraphs and a whole diatribe which come down to 'their writing did things I didnt like, so therefore they are wrong and dont know what they are doing.'

      Im the complete opposite, completely fine with Dany, Luke pissed me off to high heaven.

    Rushed as it has been since season 7 but still the best show out there. Watching Dany before she laid waste to everyone I was just sitting there like "... do it".

    The show is fucked; though not because of Daenerys, that was just them running out of time and seemed like the clear outcome. Its fucked because there are too many loose ends and no way to resolve them cleanly in two seasons after they ran out of books.

    So many good side characters that just disappeared or died in lazy writing and don't get me started on that leak from the start of the season that gave away all the key plot points of the season, including the really lazy ending.

    I’m willing to bet that there will be some spinoff “Tales from Westeros” series that has a much smaller budget and is mostly filmed in taverns.

    So... apparently the actor who played Selmy has suggested that HBO cut a deal with GRR Martin not to release the final books before the end of season 8.

    At first I believed it was to simply allow the show to maintain it’s time in the spotlight. Now I’m kinda wondering if they did that to distance the shows from the books.

    If they released at the same time, and the books do, indeed, have enough content for 5 more seasons, I now wonder about those books. Are they so damn good they’ll put the show to shame? Or has Martin kept a few plot revelations to himself?

    Keen to find out.

      There's so many more characters and sub-plots in the books that the last two would never be that close to the show. The bigger issue to me is that GRRM has admitted that he changed things in the fifth book due to reactions from the early season of the show, so at this point the book ending (if we ever get it) may not even be close what he originally planned :/

      Also to consider, George can be as grand and epic with the books as he needs to, because he isn’t hamstrung by the realities of budget and logistical difficulties of filming wild battle scenes, which must have played a part in the way the story has been concluding in the series.

      There is no way on earth GRRM's publishers would allow that deal to pass. They make many millions of dollars with each book release, there would be no sense in them agreeing to wait until HBO had finished screening to release the books. GRRM has just been too wealthy and enjoying the fame too much to sit in a room alone and write for hours a day methinks.

    My theory:

    George deliberately gave the writers false hints at how the books will end, knowing that those hints would lead to an unsatisfactory season. Let's face it- our boy, Martin, knows how fans think and what we expect from GoT. Season 8 is shaping up exactly as underwhelming as he intended.

    Now, he can finish the books with the true, satisfactory, and far more expectation-meeting ending. Fans who have already read the books thus far will, of course, buy the final books and it will come to light to everyone else that that is the real ending, is so much better, etc. After the massive disappointment of season 8, those of have not traditionally bought the books will be more inclined to at least buy the last ones to find out how it all ends, if not buy the whole series outright.

    Martin will not only score the inevitable profits from the usual book-buying audience and from HBO for season 8, regardless of its popularity, but stands a good change at hooking a new audience or readers from the previously television-only crowd, who may or may not go on to purchase the previous books as well.

    George just can't lose.

      Well the problems with the show aren't the plot points but the way they have been executed so your conspiracy doesn't really pan out imo.

        Not that I agree with Geth (I honestly think it's more likely GRRM has barely even started the sixth book) but the plot points in later seasons are a problem; the gutting (and later killing) of the entire Martell/Dorne storyline, Sansa being wed to (and abused by) Ramsay, Rickon being caught/killed by Ramsay, the lack of powers (and wolves) for the Stark kids, the fact that the Night King is even a thing, etc.

        All of those (and so many other things that I can't remember) are plot changes from the books that are already available.

      Its time to take off the tinfoil hat.

      He hasn't finished it cause he doesn't know how to wrap it all up.

        Oh guys, let me have my fun.

        Climate change is real,
        Man landed on the moon,
        The earth is round,
        And no one honestly thinks that George is playing the field as I speculated above. I’ll finish with /sarcasm next time.

      I love all these "It would be better if GRRM were still writing" conspiracy theories because they all assume GRRM has any idea how he's going to get to the end of these books himself.

    The one question I have, where is Bronn of the Blackwater? He needs to be paid what he is owed!!!

      Well now that Cersei is dead he can traipse wherever he wants in Westeros without fear of breaking contract stipulated* separation orders.

      (*Not actually sure anything was Officially written into Flynn and Headey’s contracts about not appearing on set together)

      In actual plot discussion though, he ain’t getting what he was promised by Cersei now that she’s buried under the Red Keep, and it’s likely that Tyrion will get BBQ’d for letting Jaimie go (unless there is a massive coup against Daenerys before she can attend to that).. so he could very likely come up empty handed.

        I feel for him, he just wanted to retire and got strung along by rich greedy humans. He was most likely my favorite of the series, well most underrated.

          There’s no mystery with Bron. He always looks out for number one. There’s no ulterior motives, I respect that.

        Quite possibly no-one but Tyrion knows that Jaimie escaped.

          True, that could have flown under Daenery’s radar. But depending on what her plan for him was she might be wondering where he’s gone now, and the guard will report that Tyrion was the last one to visit the prisoner. But that’s introducing outsider observer logic on the situation. Who knows if they’ll even address it.

    I ran out of investment in the show early on in the last season. It's been kind of fun just reading the recaps and watching the reactions as the show has unravelled like a cheap wool cardigan.

    Big shouts to all the kids out there named Khaleesi or Daenerys.

      I honestly think it's low-grade child cruelty to name your kids after fictional characters, even the good ones.

      It's just not right to saddle your kid so explicitly with your own tastes before they have the chance to develop their own.

        *Insert some quip about all biblical names being fictional characters*

        It's just not right to saddle your kid so explicitly with your own tastes before they have the chance to develop their own.

        Wouldn't that apply to all names?

          To an extent, perhaps, but Khaleesi or Daenerys are certainly more explicitly linked to the parent's tastes than I think is really fair on the kid.

Join the discussion!

Trending Stories Right Now