Bayonetta 3 Director Leaves Twitter, Changes Mind, Still Blocking People

17 responses to “Bayonetta 3 Director Leaves Twitter, Changes Mind, Still Blocking People”

1. 

   namiwakiru

   October 17, 2022 at 3:42 pm

   Nobody ever wins Twitter, they just get better at pretending they do.

   Reply
2. 

   Gamer Joker

   October 17, 2022 at 4:02 pm

   “Liking tweets, however, must not constitute a breach of the NDA because Hale has been busily liking tweets about the situation, both clarifying her position and generating a quiet show of support for Taylor.”

   Certainly less scorched-earth than Taylor’s weirdly vindictive seething over Hale taking up the role of Bayonetta.

   Reply
   1. 

      mase

      October 17, 2022 at 4:07 pm

      Really dude? Taylor revealed she was being paid a pittance for voicing 3 characters in a multi-million unit-selling game. How is that “scorched-earth, weirdly vindictive seething” about not taking the role?

      Reply
      1. 

         m2d2

         October 17, 2022 at 4:50 pm

         The fact you must have missed the points where Taylor had a go at Hale for taking over the role means you didnt watch all the videos or just checked out after a while cause you went into rabble rabble rabble mode.

         Reply
         1. 

            louie

            October 17, 2022 at 7:59 pm

            Taylor didn’t say that at all about Hale. She said that Hale didn’t have the right to sign merch for the character because Hale’s impersonating Taylor’s voice for the role and that’s a different problem.

            Reply
            1. 

               m2d2

               October 18, 2022 at 1:55 pm

               And Taylor is wrong about that too.

            2. 

               louie

               October 18, 2022 at 3:11 pm

               Taylor created the character voice for Bayonetta. That creation is hers morally and legally (until she signed it over to the developers). Hale’s contribution is an imitation of that initial creation, which makes her portrayal of the character just that – an imitation. She has contributed absolutely nothing to the creation of that character’s voice. This is Taylor’s point in the video.

               As a professional she wouldn’t sign anything as the actor of the character she voiced in the Golden Compass game because she made no meaningful contributions to the creation of the voice of the character. She expects the same from Hale as a matter of professional courtesy. I’m not sure what it is people aren’t understanding about this situation when it is explained in the videos.

            3. 

               m2d2

               October 18, 2022 at 4:17 pm

               No. Taylor didnt ‘create’ shit.
               She doesnt get to tell other voice actors what they can and cant do and the moment she tried, she lost any sympathy i had for her.
               All of this is probably why she wasnt rehired in the first place and they paid more for someone else.

            4. 

               louie

               October 18, 2022 at 10:41 pm

               Then I guess “Insert Favourite Band of Your Choice” didn’t create shit either, because a sound is a sound and the standards that apply to making music aren’t any different to the standards that apply to doing voicework for a game or movie. The fact that you think it’s different means that you’re here whinging on the Feelings Train and nothing else.

               Tell, no, but she can request that they not do something that breaches moral rights, which is functionally what she did here as Taylor doesn’t know what Hale was told when the latter accepted the job. The video publicly flags that concern since only one of them was willing to breach NDA to inform others of the problem and this way it also doesn’t implicate Hale nearly as much as you seem to think. If your fellow professionals get screwed over in freelance work by some wanker like Kamiya, it’s generally considered polite to abide by the requests of the person screwed over and this one isn’t unreasonable since Hale did none of the work to design the voice of the character and Taylor did. From the sounds of it, the very concept of professional courtesy in any industry escapes you, if not being a dick is far too hard for you to manage.

               You’re doing that thing where you struggle with reading comprehension again, because you don’t know enough about reality to comment intelligently and instead have to substitute in your fantasyland version of how being self-employed works. If you behave like an arsehole on the job over simple requests then all of your colleagues in the field know you’re an arsehole who’ll backstab them if the opportunity arises. That backstabbing applies far more to an actor potentially taking someone’s place at a con due to a shit situation caused by the client’s financial situation than it does the person warning everyone else publicly that the client was shit. Fans weren’t the only people watching that video.

            5. 

               m2d2

               October 19, 2022 at 12:50 pm

               Thats not how music works.
               Im not the one here defending Taylor, ESPECIALLY AFTER THE NEWS THAT CAME OUT TODAY illustrating her lies.
               https://www.destructoid.com/bayonetta-3-voice-actor-dispute-pay-report-platinum-games/

               You go on about moral rights and then precede to talk a whole lot of shit.
               Piss off louie. Youre making shit up again so you can stay angry at something.

            6. 

               louie

               October 19, 2022 at 10:35 pm

               Her performance is her IP for the origination of the character and no one can change that or alter attribution (also note that you can’t actually entirely sell your IP in Europe). Hale taking on a job can’t change the prior work. Also, you can’t attribution rights outright and they can’t be sold.
               Why do you think that this is relevant? No one said Taylor owns any rights in 3, the discussion is about her not doing the work. Of course Hale owns the rights to her performance for 3, what is wrong with you? We all know she declined the job – that’s why we’re here.
               Prior agreements are irrelevant to subsequent agreements and aren’t binding on any negotiations. The longer a commitment goes on, there is an expectation that the pay will increase and be renegotiated though, so I’m not sure why you think this is relevant.
               Irrelevance on appearance rights (why would this matter when she’s old woman and the character she plays clearly isn’t her?).
               Again, irrelevant. No one’s mentioned appearance rights anywhere.

               I really press x to doubt on you not being screwed out of things when you have absolutely no grasp of how the law works. Your lawyer must’ve been sprinting across those contract finish lines with you over his shoulders like a sack of potatoes for your level of ignorance.
               Wow, one line down and you really did get screwed out of piles of money. Your lawyer must’ve sucked a huge amount to even let you sign that contract(s). IP isn’t assigned automatically to anyone else unless you specifically grant permission for it and for you to have none means that’s what I assume happened. You literally signed your inherent rights away without realising it, because shit isn’t a default part of copyright law.
               Uh, I didn’t say she owned anything in relation to 3? I said she had moral rights which are attribution rights to her previous works (hence her claim to merch signing). You’re clearly projecting what other people said onto me. So this is irrelevant.
               No dude, you never sold any IP because your dumb arse allowed it to be assigned without any reasonable compensation. Get that shit checked out, but with a lawyer instead of a doctor.

               She didn’t get the job because she refused to do it. Literally contracting 101 – the right to refuse. It’s not that they turned her down, it’s that she told them to take their offer and stuff it up their arse, which is what contractors do when there isn’t enough money on the table.
               Except the agreement was for a buyout of the performance rights, as she and they agreed and that means the higher price scale. A commercial licence to the performance that’s non-exclusive means she could’ve sold it elsewhere for other companies to use and clearly Platinum isn’t going to tolerate that. What exactly do you think a total buyout is?
               You cannot assign moral rights. It’s part of law, but you’re same person who assigned all of your rights away without knowing it, so what would you know?
               Uh, relevance? No one said she hadn’t paid been for her first two roles and nor did complain about it so I’m sure what you’re crying about here.
               Do you have timeline problems? The buyout disagreement was over the prospective work for 3. Those contracts have to be arranged prior to the performance being done. The contract comes before the job and she said no to the contract, which means she said no to the job. How is this difficult to understand? Again, we all know that she didn’t take the job for 3 and doesn’t expect money for work she didn’t do (apart from you maybe, since you keep bringing it up when even she never said that). Her complaint is about Platinum’s lack of professionalism during negotiations, not them not giving her money for nothing.

               You really complete incapable of reading a simple sentence, aren’t you? Taylor literally says in her video that the problem was they gave her the audition then planned on paying her nothing, effectively wasting her time from the onset of the audition. It’s unprofessional behaviour on the part of the company and her video request for boycott is a way of blacklisting bad clients in the industry. That’s what people do when clients behave like dicks. How you totally missed that, thinking it’s about her magically wanting money now (where did you even pull this idea out of your arse) I don’t know. As for the previous performance stuff, literally no one raised that argument apart from you. Have you considered not attacking your own stawman, but instead the argument I actually made (which is that Platinum are dicks and did this to themselves through poor communication)? Tends to help with credibility on your end. No one has raised any of these points, least of all her. The only person talking about her wanting more money retrospectively is YOU.

               Why do you keep talking about anger here? Are you so stupid that you think someone writing in paragraphs and being literate to a basic degree is a sign of anger? It’s no wonder that your lawyer and record label took you for a ride so hard if you don’t understand how grammar works. They wouldn’t have even had to worry about you reading the contract before you signed it.
               The country matters for both the legal requirements and the amount of money that the contractor expects. You being too dumb to understand this doesn’t change how negotiation of a contract works or its relevance to them hiring a Brit instead of an American. Europeans will almost always have higher expectations for payments due to their cost of living, but if you can’t read, I don’t expect you to understand how the rest of real life works either.
               Up in arms over what? “Hey guys Platinum did a dumb dumb?” is being up in arms? I want whatever you’re smoking, because that’s pointing out an observable screw up by the company, no more no less. You’re here defending a corporation that doesn’t give two shits about you like a woman defending her abusive boyfriend (and still are behaving like that with your own poorly handled career) and you claim everyone else is being emotional. I think you need to learn how to read and maybe see a therapist so you can learn how emotions work while you’re at it.

               Also, Bayonetta didn’t have a Japanese VA to begin with, you ill educated donkey. Taylor WAS the original actor prior to the games being re-released since it never had a Japanese dub, but that’d require a Google search on your part, wouldn’t it? Thank you for nullifying any of your complaints about that so quickly.

               Copyright has everything to do with how much money in these legal agreements. But again, what would you know when you apparently agreed to having yours automatically assigned? You’ve exposed yourself as the very last person who should ever feel qualified to talk about IP rights.

               Wait wait wait. You just said – “Plat is probably closer to the bad guy in this situation, you are correct.” THEN WE AGREE WITH EACH OTHER. I never said that Taylor was a saint, just that her expectations weren’t entirely unreasonable for the commercial situation. I don’t agree with her going public, but her choosing to blacklist a company is entirely her decision and I quite frankly don’t care if she doesn’t want to work in the industry anymore by doing it. It’s her life, she can do what she wants and so can her colleagues. That’s the only point that was ever made!

               I can’t believe it took you this long to understand that my point was “Platinum stuffed up, this really shouldn’t have happened if everyone communicated better” and escalated it into this because you’re projecting your incompetence onto other people. Learn how to read, for the love of god.

         2. 

            louie

            October 19, 2022 at 4:05 pm

            That’s how all intellectual property works whether it’s music, digital art, traditional art, voice acting, etc. It’s still property under the same banner of laws, so you still have to pay for it. You not getting that is your problem. If you want to fuck around and find out with the lawyers and develop some personal experience in the area, you can go off and have that life experience, then come back and have a discussion resembling a credible commentary instead a jilted fanboy.

            You also thinking that $15,000 is reasonable also exposes that yet again you have no idea because the number is still too low. A total buyout means she can never use that voice again on another character and anyone wanting that has to pay big bucks in the hundreds of thousands into the millions for that privilege of total exclusive use (because it extends for the life of the copyright which is lifetime of the creator + 100 years in most cases). But hey, I know you want to play the game and you think Platinum Games totally aren’t scam artists from way back, but that’s not relevant to reasonable compensation for intellectual property. Your intense ignorance and ride on the Feelings Train doesn’t change that it’s not reasonable compensation for a buyout. Ignorance of reality doesn’t change how the business or law works.

            You also need to lay off the projection there about anger, when you’re the one having a meltdown because understanding simple business practices is destroying your fragile understanding of how the world works. Outright admitting to the fact that you don’t know that moral rights in copyright law aren’t the same as actual morality doesn’t help your case and carries right on exposing that you’re huffing too hard on the emotional juice to have commentary based in real life instead of La La Land. You’re wrong about everything you’ve posted here, but instead of crying to me about it maybe you should Google before you come out with poorly informed crap in the first place.

            Reply
            1. 

               m2d2

               October 19, 2022 at 5:26 pm

               Yeah cool. You just want to stay angry and claim bullshit.
               Look at how much bullshit and projection you are going on with and then claim otherwise.
               Hell you even claimed that i didnt know what self employed was like when thats exactly what i was doing in the design industry for over a decade and also say i dont know shit about music, yet i was the one in multiple bands releasing music. But please, continue to go off and write that diatribe and still going on about moral rights whilst claiming IM the one thats angry.
               Yeah. Thats going well for you. Jesus christ lady you can be a loon sometimes. Touch fucking grass.

            2. 

               louie

               October 19, 2022 at 5:46 pm

               How do you expect to be taken seriously when you’ve completely failed to refute any of my explanations as not being real? You’re sitting here foaming at the mouth over an explanation of how the law and business actually works and you’re behaving like it’s chasing you down with a knife. The only angry person here is clearly you writing three line, emotional responses crying about how angry others are when you’re the only person here emotionally charged. Does being dumbfounded at sheer ignorance count as an emotional response on my part? Because that’s the only thing I’m actually feeling reading your inane, content free replies.

               You need to take a step back and look at yourself and the quality of your refutations of me being wrong. Oh wait, you can’t, because those don’t actually exist and screaming “BULLSHIT” like an idiot just makes you look an idiot. It doesn’t really address the points being made and nor can you address them because you don’t actually know about these topics, do you? If you did then surely you’d do that rather than crying and saying how wrong I am with no justification for why that’s the case. But you haven’t done that. If you want to have an outraged emotional response over something, there’s a number of tyrannical dictatorships you can get angry about while maintaining full factual correctness.

               Ouch, over a decade of “experience” with absolutely nothing to show for it. Sucks to be you. Taking me down should be a walk in the park, but you’re not capable of forming a single sentence of refutation. Maybe your “experience” doesn’t actually mean anything and that’s the real reason you’re onboard the Feelings Express. You’ve had plenty of opportunities to do more than write about how wrong I am, but you can’t because you don’t actually know anything. Or maybe you’re just upset because it’s taken you 10 years to realise you got screwed over in your band due to your ignorance of the business and the law and are now taking it out on everyone else instead.

               So yeah, you need to stop projecting and touch some grass yourself.

            3. 

               m2d2

               October 19, 2022 at 6:27 pm

               Look at all that. LOOK AT LOUIE.
               Look at how much you went on and on about, when
               1. its Platniums IP NOT HERS.
               2. You keep posting so much shit about someone else frothing when look at what you are doing. When every point you make, isnt a point, its you just riding on emotion. Its not her IP. No matter how much you want it to be so, its not.
               Unless you are a writer, or producers of the art, you dont get IP rights. You just dont.
               She tried to get mass stacks and residuals, it didnt work out for her and they went in a different direction. Too bad so sad.

               And yeah, its not great that i dont have much to show for over decade of experience. But hell, if that aint the industry in a nutshell i dont know what is.
               And no, it didnt take my 10 years to realise the industry sucks, i walked into it knowing that. I only walked out of it cause of mental health and i dont abide by the minimalist design trend at the moment. (different story entirely for the music business, touring sucks, no thanks)

               But you try the gamble of “i want over 100k and royalties” to a game when you hold no fucking cards, im not going to have any sympathy for you, especially when you have a go at your peers on your way out when your hand didnt work out for you.
               There is no ‘moral law’ when what was offered was UNION APPROVED RATES. You may say 15k is too low for FOUR SHIFTS OF WORK. You could be 100% right. But thats the union going rate. She wanted more, She didnt get it. MANY voice actors have come out and said the new numbers stated are correct and that the numbers Taylor quoted are not.
               Im not getting up in arms from someone who obviously is trying the charm offensive, calling for boycotts, slagging her peers after its been proven shes lied. Im just not.

               Touch. Fucking. Grass.

            4. 

               louie

               October 19, 2022 at 8:04 pm

               You really are the living example of the Dunning–Kruger Effect, aren’t you?

               1. Taylor’s voice and performance of a character belongs to her and any work done with that performance has to be paid out fully in the event of a buyout. So yes, her performance of Bayonetta is her intellectual property and not Platinum’s as it is literally her performance in the same way an actor owns their performance in a movie. Platinum needs to buy the rights to that performance to use it. It’s hard to imagine someone being in a band and not knowing such a crucial piece of information for their job.

               We’re already off to a strong start here for you knowing precisely jack shit, but let’s continue for anyone else who has the misfortune of reading this exchange.

               2. I never said Bayonetta was her IP; her performance of the character is her IP and has to be subject to a licence agreement for Platinum to legally use her performance in their games. It should be a given that her contribution to the project (her performance/voice) is her IP. Are you illiterate to come out with such a statement?
               –
               Oh you poor, miserable bastard, is that what they told you when they screwed you out of your earnings for your contributions to the band? Any piece of art created, whether it’s a vocal performance, recorded performance in a movie, recording of an instrument, physical piece of art, music, etc. grants intellectual property rights and copyright to the creator of that artwork and it all counts as an artwork. If you played a guitar, you own the rights to that performance and if you write a script you own the rights to that script and if you paint an image you own the rights to that image in addition to the physical painting, and if you mix the sound for an OST you own the rights to that version of the content etc. How you choose to sell those rights is entirely on YOU as the copyright holder of your artwork (subject to your employment status at the time).

               The process of negotiation licences differs between parties, but contractors never lose their copyright until it’s sold on (and it has to be sold for a reasonable amount to be valid in Europe especially). Only employees of a business have their copyright automatically assigned to their employer as a presumption (which is what would realistically happen to someone doing sound mixing who isn’t a contractor) and Taylor is not an employee of Platinum. She owns her performance of the character of Bayonetta as an independent contractor and can negotiate for whatever price she so desires and say no if the offer sucks (which is what she did and then publicised it, but that’s actually a different discussion in NDA land).

               There are standard rates for what contractors are paid and there are schedules for what’s considered reasonable payment and Platinum failed to meet these standards. Platinum are currently on the verge of bankruptcy due to commercial failures and probably could have avoided this situation if they told her that in the first place. It wasn’t exactly a secret (note that she said the Bayonetta IP is worth $400 million, which alters cost multipliers for licence fees).

               If you only got peanuts for your IP and weren’t an employee, then you got screwed over because the IP is always worth more than the hours worked physically creating it. Contractors always have the last say on the price on their intellectual property. The design industry does suck and so does the industry Taylor operates in for much the same reasons, which is why she set her price at the standard price for the job she was doing (six digits + royalties is recommended in European pricing books from different creative organisations). We don’t know the specifics of those negotiations, but $15,000 is absolutely nothing to buyout performances of multiple characters (each character performance would constitute its own licence) from what should be a AAA studio. From her videos, I would think she went nuclear on exposing Platinum for the same reason you left your field – mental health. The bullshit from dealing with the situation was no longer worth the money or stress.

               100k is on the lowish side for a buyout of that nature and she and Platinum both know it. You claim she doesn’t hold all the cards, but there are plenty of people in the same boat as her who resent attempts at underpayment whether they’re in the industry or out and that will damage Platinum’s reputation more than it will Taylor’s reputation. The real problem here is that Platinum failed to communicate their financial status and that negatively impacted the negotiations for both sides. By them not explaining the rationale for their low offer and hiring Hale (who was no doubt offered more than $15k as a lump sum for her buyout and was happy to take it for whatever reason) they planted the seeds for other people being told about it. Unfortunately, that was on Twitter for the entire general public to see. Contrary to you thinking she was having a go at Hale, I think it was a broader warning of their treatment of the talent. As explained before, the specifics of Hale not signing merch as the character is because she’s an impersonator and that’s under professional courtesy. There’s no legal requirement to do as requested, but everyone else in the field will think you’re a dick if you don’t when you added nothing to the original performance (we won’t know until the game releases if this is actually the case).

               Moral rights in copyright refer things like attribution rights, i.e. Platinum cannot take away Taylor’s ability to say that she voiced and created the performance of the character that Hale is now imitating (which is what was being referred to with the signing situation). As stated before, legal moral rights are not morality in the plain English meaning.

               The union going rate might’ve been perfectly fine for an employee, but Taylor is not an employee and is entitled to more for her performance for them to buy those rights. If other actors choose to disregard the standard fees for licences and get underpaid as a result, then they’re screwed themselves and their colleagues over and that’s on them. Taylor as well appears to be from theatre arts field, which is not the same as the far more and notoriously underpaid voice actor which again changes the expected scale of the payment as does her living in Europe (European law requires far larger amounts of money for a licence to even transfer and Platinum’s lawyers should’ve worked prior to hiring her the first time).

               You don’t need to get up in arms for anyone when you can start with a grasp of the copyright law, literacy and a basic understanding that contractors are not employees and are not obligated to tolerate the same garbage working conditions as an (American, let’s be honest here) employee. She doesn’t need to be a saint to request what’s considered a fair payment in her region of the world and Platinum could’ve been honest about their financial circumstances and prevented this situation entirely. Your reaction belies your total lack of understanding about copyright and, as a result, Taloy’s specific complaints about Platinum’s behaviour and her request for Hale. In summary, it’s not nearly as big of a deal as what you’re stating, but it’s still a BS move from Platinum for putting both Hale and Taylor into this situation. It’s one of their own making and only focusing on Taylor ignores the involvement of them as the source of the problem that was created (for reference, the only reason budget wouldn’t be mentioned, would to be to dodge proof of trading while insolvent or to underpay and mislead negotiations with talent. There is no reason for lying about it that’s beneficial to the contractor). Platinum are the problem here more than anyone else.

               As for touching grass, you first. You can throw yourself onto it while you catch up on the basics of copyright law.

            5. 

               m2d2

               October 19, 2022 at 8:56 pm

               Not her IP.
               Not her rights.
               Her performance WAS NOT USED in bayo 3.
               She gets no residuals for other games. Her performance was paid for. She owns nothing.
               She gets NOTHING for someone else being cast and doing a likeness of her due to the IP being Plats.
               Its why some voice actors get paid better for a 2 min voice over in a TV commercial over time vs a video game being a MAIN CAST member due to different rights outlooks.

               Didnt get screwed out of anything as far as music goes cause i was the writer, performer and producer of most works.
               And no, thats not how it works either, if i was paid for my time in studio from someone else to be a guest performer where i wrote NOTHING, unless stated otherwise, i own no rights to that song, not even my performance.
               Welcome to reality, whether or not you want to accept that is on you, we both know you wont because you want to be angry, but Taylor owns nothing as far as the char goes.
               (Its also why i never sold any rights to any of my IP despite the fact i probably would have seen more money if i had at the end of the day.)

               She didnt get the job. she tried to make other people out to be the bad guy cause she more than they were willing to offer.
               You keep saying its money for a buyout. Its not. She is being paid for a performance. One she didnt do. She gets Zero money.
               She has no moral rights, Platinum has all IP rights. You keep saying it, doesnt change a damn thing, she has NO CARDS TO PLAY.
               You keep going on about copyright law, when Taylor doesnt own a damn thing as far as bayonetta goes. not her char, not her performance. They would only need to give her more money if they re-released the first two games AGAIN, and only if her original contract demands that.
               the whole “buyout” thing just is utterly dumb. There is nothing to buy out here. She was already paid for her services. She gets no residuals. She owns nothing inside the game.

               All you want to do is seethe at some corp on go on rants that have nothing to do with the situation at hand, instead youll go on about copyright law when for starters every country has different rules on that, and none of it matters anyway because she didnt work on the current game because Plat would rather recast that say “yes” to her demands and she hold no cards with the future because Plat holds all IP rights and holds the copyright to all of the performances from their games.
               You can continue to claim otherwise, but these corps arent stupid, they 100% own previous performances, And you can usually tell when some games down own the rights to said performances because the games are never re-released for new consoles.

               You are the one who wants to be angry here.
               You do this every time you get angry Louie. Something grinds your gears and you go completely off the handle and will latch on to any damn thing you can so you can seethe even harder.
               Especially when its against a corporation.
               Youre the one so up in arms over this.
               She should have been paid more, but when you are difficult and ask for too much from someone, you cant be shocked if they want to work with someone else and telling that person “YOU SHOULDNT SIGN PICTURES OF MY CHAR” when its not hers (hell Atsuko Tanaka has a better shot at that seeing as how you know, shes the original VA, but she probably doesnt even the rights to her performance either.) she loses any possible sympathy i have for her.
               You are bringing copyright into a case where it has no bearing at all in whats going on, because for all intents and purposes, the previous games she was already paid for her services and Plat (or possibly even nintendo in regards to B2 & B3) owns everything and will only have to pay her if they intend to re-release the old games, and considering how petty Plat is, they would prob just pay for Hale to redub.
               Plat is probably closer to the bad guy in this situation, you are correct.
               But im not championing Taylor after how she acted, the truth of the REAL financials came out and just because “fuck corps and how they use people”.
               There is a reason why hayter came out against Taylor even after he was replace by Kiefer.
               Continue to be angry i suppose. But im done conversing with your angry ass.